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Super Powered Battery?

Discussion in 'Power Electronics' started by thesystem, May 2, 2012.

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  1. thesystem

    thesystem

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    May 2, 2012
    Hello Everyone,

    First time posting so go easy!

    A friend and I (that have no electronic XP) have been talking asbout an idea and started to do research. Right now what we want todo vaguely is take an everyday house hold appliance and make a battery(rechargeable) powered portable version.

    From the research I've done I found out that the wall outlet versions use between110v-220v and 1000-1500watts. I haven't be able to find a battery that would be capable of this and still remain portable. I keep thinking this has to be possible in some way with todays tech because we have products that are power hungry like power tools and laptops.

    Maybe someone can give me some info or point me in the right direction?

    Thank You for your time!
    -M
     
  2. CocaCola

    CocaCola

    3,635
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    Apr 7, 2012
    If you want high power and long run times you need BIG batteries... Some battery tech like Lipos has made it smaller but not small... Cordless power tools and laptops are not that power hungry compared to household appliances...

    To get any idea, just look at what is involved in creating an electric car that is actually able to travel a significant distance...
     
  3. thesystem

    thesystem

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    May 2, 2012
    Thanks

    Thank you CocaCola!

    This is what I sorta knew but was hoping there could be another way!
    What about high power short run times? Does this still require massive battery?

    Other post / comments would be welcomed!

    Thanks Again!
     
  4. donkey

    donkey

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    Feb 26, 2011
    hey thesystem, got a couple of questions in relation to this, please define portable? for me portable is carrying it around, but in the case of a refrigerator that is kind of hard to do lol.

    there are MANY things that are going 12v for cars and camping. and for some things you can buy an INVERTER to make 12v go up to 115 or 230v depending on the country you reside in. as usual there are some limitations to using an inverter and that is the current draw. alot of inverters don't like refrigerators, air con units or anything that has a super large draw at the start (most of the items are usually things with a motor turning a massive load, like a fridge has a compressor that needs a massive amount of current to get it moving initialy, in some houses with older wiring you can see the lights dim when the compressor kicks in)

    the other side of the coin is recharging those batteries. the most common battery used for ongoing inverter usage is a 12v SLA(sealed lead acid, like in a car) deepcycle(not exactly the same as a car) battery.these need to be recharged when they have lost as little as 20% of their full capacity due to sulphication.(that word may be slightly wrong feel free to correct me please)

    the most common way of doing this currently is solar, but there are alternatives depending on your situation. for example if you only wish to use the battery for a weekend of camping you can buy a battery charger that plugs into mains. if you know a bit about cars you can upgrade the power system and have your alternator charge 2 batteries(in most cases i reccommend you upgrade the alternator too to provide sufficient charge) and then there is also wind.
    typically a inverter setup without the charging side is slightly bigger than the battery... and is only 2 components, the battery and charger(try to put a fuse in there for safety)
    depending on the battery bought these can provide 200ah(but they cost 800-900 dollars australiadn... thats a little more in US dollars).
    I hope this helps out a bit and if you need more info on12v inverter tech i am more than happy to point out a few sites
     
  5. GreenGiant

    GreenGiant

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    6
    Feb 9, 2012
    I work for a high powered battery company we are pushing the limits on total power stored in batteries, and what you are talking about would take something the size of a car battery with our cells.

    You are asking for kilowatts of power, for sake of argument lets say something needs 1 kilowatt/hour (kWh) of power, at 12Volts, thats about 83 amps solid for 1 hour, therefor you would need an 83Ah 12V battery (at least) to sustain it for that amount of time, and at the end of that hour it would be completely dead.

    To put this in perspective we sell a 100 kWh battery backup for use when the power goes out

    Granted it outputs 120V AC but still, the unit is the size of a small box truck, I think what you are trying to do is not feasible, you would probably be better off getting a long extension cord, or getting something like an APC backup
     
  6. thesystem

    thesystem

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    May 2, 2012
    FIRST Thanks Donkey!

    Second My definition of portable was about the size of an american football so about 11 inches by 4 inches... This product wasn;t so much of a camping idea but I guess along the lines. It would be something you could throw in your backpack and bring it to work or school. It seems that we may have held our exception too high for this project (Thats what we get for beging Post production workers!).

    This is great stuff my my research! And thanks again for your time!

    Best,
    M
     
  7. thesystem

    thesystem

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    May 2, 2012
    Thanks GreenGiant!

    It is great to see someone comment from the battery tech industry! I know you said it was "just for the sake of argument"....BUT lets say I only need this power for about 5-10 minutes MAX! Would that change the size of the battery to a nice cute little one? Not one that would need a car battery / whole team to move it?

    Also any chance you could send me a link to your companies site to take a look at some of these batteries you work on?

    Thanks for your time! Much appreciated!

    Best
    M
     
  8. donkey

    donkey

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    Feb 26, 2011
    batteries usage is usually defined in ah(amp hours) or cc(cold crank amp) the latter is usually found on car batteries to show how many amps it can provide at most to turn the starter motor which in turn cranks the motor into running.
    the previous one is usually a deep cycle battery. now the issue is, is what you are running. if for example you are camping and want a torch (I have bestest one ever but it cost $200) you could get away with buying some ultrabright LEDs(cree and luxeon are 2 examples). they drain very little power for the amount of light they produce and need no inverter(they do however need a regulator).
    if you want a t.v. (which in my opinion ruins the idea of camping but hey thats just my opinion) you have several options from using an inverter to buying a portable one. each item used uses different amounts of kwh.
    the basics of a charging plant is as follows,
    first and foremost calculate what kwh you need, hyperthetically a tv uses 1kwh. you then have to figure out how long you want to run this item for, lets say 2hours at night so thats 2kwh. you go hiking for 3 days so thats 6kwh as you aren't recharging.
    take that figure and find a battery and inverter to match. first of all the battery has to hold that many kwh (can someone please give me the formula to equate kwh to amps and use this example to calculate it... however inaccurate the tv usage is) the battery can hold. remember that sla batteries don't like going below 80%
    second make sure the inverter can output the kw the appliance needs in our example i doubt a 100watt inverter will last too long.
    when you have all of this you will know what battery and inverter to buy. having said that at the current time the most ah i have seen in a single sla battery is 200ah and they cost 800 aus dollars(a bit more for american).
    they big alternative to that is a portable generator which takes fuel. these are heavy to carry but i reckon with some ingenuity you will be able to place some decent wheels on it.
    as for portability...... ever lifted a car battery???
    I highly doubt you will find something under 10kg that will last more than 5 minutes. as for charging find a charger when you get home and take the LOAD(inverter) of the battery.
     
  9. Wabajig

    Wabajig

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    Apr 14, 2012
    To get more specific, what are you recharging?
     
  10. thesystem

    thesystem

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    May 2, 2012
    [EDIT]
    Hey Wabajig,

    Thanks for taking your time and showing interest!

    We are in the process of creating our own new product. It's along the lines of a heater.
    Once we confirm or deny the feasible I will post the 3D models we currently have.

    Measurements roughly 11Inches x 3.4 inches with the battery having to fit in about 3inches x 3.4inches

    Best,
    M
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2012
  11. Wabajig

    Wabajig

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    Apr 14, 2012
    Don't know what your heating but if it only needs to be warm for 5-10 minutes. Then maybe chemical might be your avenue. John
     
  12. GreenGiant

    GreenGiant

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    Feb 9, 2012
    assuming 1000W (mentioned earlier) and for sake of argument using 12V you will still need a battery able to handle 83A instantaneously (cold crank), that's still going to be a pretty hefty battery. You would be looking at something like a typical motorcycle battery (7-40Ah 85-400 cold crank amps)
     
  13. Wabajig

    Wabajig

    75
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    Apr 14, 2012
    I know your working on a top secret, none more secret project and I respect that. It seem green giant has the motorcycle battery idea should work nicely if 12 volts is acceptable and if you are not drawing the juice but once a day or week for a short period, then maybe solar if your mobile and have no normal ways of charging battery back up.
     
  14. donkey

    donkey

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    Feb 26, 2011
    this has stepped up a bit from where we started, now we know its use.
    ok for starters is it absolutely necessary to be electrical? because there are heat pack available and are alot safer then electric ones, especially inside tents.
    if it absolutely necessary then how long are you looking at running said item for? I would hate to think its something left on overnight inside a tent.
    and then you can look at possible ways to charge an item, there are 12v solar panels that give a small output and can fit in your backpack. then there are dynamos or hand cranked generators, you will find some being used in survival radios and torches. the last is a small wind generator. most of these will fit into a back pack and require about 5minutes to setup. they will HELP in keeping a smaller battery charged for longer, but as is the case with most things the smaller it is the shorter time it will run for.
    and one last thing i thought of is the incadesent globe. supplied with the right current those suckers can get nice and warm (in some cases too hot to touch), although you have to be pretty close to get the heat as it dissapate pretty quick. I also have an idea that might fold down for you thus making the battery used smaller than just using a heater as standard.
    one thing I have found with all 12v technology is that due to the 12v nature things take longer to work, there are 12v kettles for example that take up to and sometimes more than twice as long to heat water as a mains powered version does

    to help out more factor in a few things, what size area are you heating? is the heat going to be blown away or is this device meant for inside a tent? how long does it need to run? and lastly is the one i reckon is most important, what safety features are you putting on it from staying on too long?
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2012
  15. BobK

    BobK

    7,682
    1,686
    Jan 5, 2010
    If you are indeed talking about something to heat a tent, there is already a very cheap and efficient solution.

    http://www.amazon.com/Coleman-Sport...UPSI/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1336138348&sr=8-2

    Look at these specs:

    Product Features
    1,500 BTU unit runs up to 14 hours on one 16.4-oz. propane cylinder (sold separately)
    PerfecTemp Catalytic technology for safe, efficient flameless heat -- at the game, in the tent, in the garage or around the home
    Easy-grip handle for convenient carrying
    Tie heater to most surfaces with built-in eyelets
    Detachable base stabilizes heater

    You could not come close with an electric heater.

    Bob
     
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