Strange problem with low energy light bulb

[Arny Krueger]

Fallicy #1 - all CFL's are the same. Right now, they are a moving target as
the designs of their electronics packages becomes more sophisticated and
purpose-driven.

Dimmable CFL's are available in enough different wattages to be useful in a
wide variety of applications.

True that disposal is more critical especially because of the the mercury.
However, I've seen situations where CFL's outlast incadescents by 20:1.


They are both primarily made up of glass, which is recylcliable.

This is a very flawed argument. Industry is going to get the power they
need. They don't buy power for the fun of it.

Mixed bag.

Quite apart from the problems of disposing of old CFLs, I
question the whole principle of Low Energy lighting.

In the summer, less heat means less need for air conditioning. In the
winter, less heat from electricity for lighting may have to be offset to
keep the rooms at the same temperature, but space heating often comes from
more efficient sources. Electricity generation has about 70% waste back at
the generating plant, plus significant losses due to transmission and
distribution. Natural gas doesn't have the 70% conversion cost, but it does
have some losses in transmission and distribution.

If
you have a conventional bulb, much of the energy output
is in the form of heat, which will help heat the room,
and consequently will reduce the need for other heating,
central or otherwise.

Only surely true in the winter. Even in the winter, space heating generally
comes by a more efficient path that was detailed above.

Putting in a low-energy lamp mean
that there is less heat being put into the room, and
consequently, more heat has to be supplied externally.

Clearly not true at all if you are cooling the room, which is true in maybe
90% of the US in the summer.

 

[Phil Allison]

"Arny Krueger"

Fallicy #1 - all CFL's are the same.

** No-one said that.

Total red herring anyhow.

Dimmable CFL's are available in enough different wattages to be useful in
a wide variety of applications.

** Shame they are prohibitively more expensive and hard to find.

True that disposal is more critical especially because of the the
mercury. However, I've seen situations where CFL's outlast incadescents by
20:1.

** Non sequitur - most folk have seen the reverse far more often.

They are both primarily made up of glass, which is recylcliable.

** Nice " selecting the evidence " fallacy.

Only surely true in the winter. Even in the winter, space heating
generally comes by a more efficient path that was detailed above.

** More example selecting.

Homes in Australia are mostly all electric.

Clearly not true at all if you are cooling the room, which is true in
maybe 90% of the US in the summer.

** Domestic lighting is only used at night, when a little extra heat is
mostly welcome.

Reducing night time electricity demand by a few percent ( all changing bulbs
to CFLs can manage ) has no effect on coal usage or CO2 production.

There is no overall economic or CO2 advantage to be had by making CFL use
compulsory.

There are serious hazards risks in so doing - particularly home fires
which are notoriously fatal.

Bad idea, dreamt up by ego tripping, greenie fuckwits.



......... Phil

 

[Eeyore]

Homes in Australia are mostly all electric.

That'll make using less energy easy then.

Is there a lot of coal generated electricity and if so is the coal of local
origin ?

Graham

 

[Arny Krueger]

Agreed that *should* be the case, but the fact is that
the envelope of a vacuum light bulb remains substantially
cold in use,

Maybe a really low-wattage bulb. But at 50 watts and up, you won't
comfortably unscrew a hot bulb with your bare fingers.

 

[[email protected]]

You have a more complicated circuit than you think. If you have 3
switches, each capable of turning the lamp on and off irrespective of
the positions of the other two switches, then the switches are not
directly connected to the lamp. The switches are connected to a (-n
electromechanical) relay or a solid-state relay. The relay provides
power to the lamp...the switches control the relay. I suspect leakage
somewhere in wiring between the switch(s) and the relay...which, if
solid-state, may require only a few milliamps to trip the relay.
Could also be that the control relay is defective somehow...- Hide quotedtext -

- Show quoted text -

Nope...

A simple 4-way switch system.

http://www.handymanwire.com/articles/3wayswitch.html

No relays involved, and any single switch can turn On/Off irrespective
of the others (at any one time).

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

 

[Albert Manfredi]

** Shame they are prohibitively more expensive and hard to find.

I've so far only seen the 3-way variety. Not the ones dimmable by triac
(the normal infinitetly variable dimmers we are used to, that only work
with incandescent bulbs).

** Non sequitur - most folk have seen the reverse far more often.

Most folks? I would suspect infant mortality if the fluorescent has
anywhere close to as short a life as an incandescent. Mine have lasted
for years and years in every case.

** More example selecting.

Well, heating a room, in summer, even at night, is not generally a good
thing. And it's certainly true that electic resistive heat is not very
efficient. So on both counts, the heat from incadescent bulbs is hardly
a "feature."

Reducing night time electricity demand by a few percent ( all changing
bulbs to CFLs can manage ) has no effect on coal usage or CO2
production.

There is no overall economic or CO2 advantage to be had by making CFL
use compulsory.

So far, compulsory is only in Australia. But I'd say that light bulbs
constitute a large load, especially in homes that use gas for their
furnace and kitchen. In such homes, only heavy appliances or hair dryers
require more than 100 watts or so, yet for light bulbs, that's common.
And there are many light bulbs.

At night, with bulbs lit, a typical home probably uses the equivalent of
one or two hair dryers, kept running constantly for hours and hours.
Hardly a trivial load. Makes a lot more sense to clamp down on that
load, than to get all compulsive about DTV set-top boxes, as the EU has
done.

Bert

 

[Ron Capik]

< ...snip... >


Maplins do a candle bulb that's vacuum filled. Also, see info on vacuum
bulbs at

http://members.misty.com/don/bulb1.html

Arfa

"Vacuum filled," oh how I enjoy that one. It evokes the image of
someone pouring stuff form this bottle of "vacuum" into each
light bulb.

However, I do believe it might be a bit more proper to say the
bulbs are (or have been) evacuated. <G>

[ Sorry, the pedantic devil made me do this. ]


Later...

Ron Capik
--

 

[Lostgallifreyan]

"Vacuum filled," oh how I enjoy that one. It evokes the image of
someone pouring stuff form this bottle of "vacuum" into each
light bulb.

Hell yes, and as we know that nature (allegedly) abhors a vaccuum, that
someone will really have to press the stuff in there hard. >

 

[Phil Allison]

"Albert Manfredi"
"Phil Allison"

Most folks?

** Yes.

( snip dumb remark)

So far, compulsory is only in Australia.

** You are very ignorant.

The EU has announced an impending ban on incandescent lamps in the next two
years or so.

Same goes for Australia, New Zealand and some US states.

But I'd say that light bulbs constitute a large load,

** Domestic use light bulbs do not.

At night, with bulbs lit, a typical home probably uses the equivalent of
one or two hair dryers, kept running constantly for hours and hours.
Hardly a trivial load.

** The major loads in a home are water heaters, fridges, stoves and air
conditioners.

Indoor light bulbs that are only used at night and only when needed are a
small load.




....... Phil

 

[Arfa Daily]

< ...snip... >


Maplins do a candle bulb that's vacuum filled. Also, see info on vacuum
bulbs at

http://members.misty.com/don/bulb1.html

Arfa

"Vacuum filled," oh how I enjoy that one. It evokes the image of
someone pouring stuff form this bottle of "vacuum" into each
light bulb.

However, I do believe it might be a bit more proper to say the
bulbs are (or have been) evacuated. <G>

[ Sorry, the pedantic devil made me do this. ]


Later...

Ron Capik

It's one of those 'odd ones' isn't it ? Obviously "filled" is not the right
word, and "evacuated" seems a bit 'scientific'. The references to these
bulbs tend to call them "vacuum filled", so I just went along with that ...
;-)

Arfa

 

[Ron Capik]

< ...snip... >


Maplins do a candle bulb that's vacuum filled. Also, see info on vacuum
bulbs at

http://members.misty.com/don/bulb1.html

Arfa

"Vacuum filled," oh how I enjoy that one. It evokes the image of
someone pouring stuff form this bottle of "vacuum" into each
light bulb.

However, I do believe it might be a bit more proper to say the
bulbs are (or have been) evacuated. <G>

[ Sorry, the pedantic devil made me do this. ]


Later...

Ron Capik

It's one of those 'odd ones' isn't it ? Obviously "filled" is not the right
word, and "evacuated" seems a bit 'scientific'. The references to these
bulbs tend to call them "vacuum filled", so I just went along with that ...
;-)

Arfa

Ahh, that so reminds me of the winning definition of "politically correct."
"" Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media,
which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a
turd by the clean end.""

So do take care as to what end of the vacuum you fill with. <G>


Later...

Ron Capik
--

 

[Eeyore]

"Albert Manfredi"
"Phil Allison"

** You are very ignorant.

The EU has announced an impending ban on incandescent lamps in the next two
years or so.

There is as yet no Directive.

I've seem some sensible moves towards banning just 'inefficient' incandescents
i.e standard tungsten filament types. It would be crazy to eliminate halogens.

Graham

 

[Karl Uppiano]

CFLs are useful in some applications; I use them, but they aren't for
everything. Pity that the typically scientifically clueless politicians are
attempting to take yet another decision from us. Freedom goes chip, chip,
chip.

I would like to see a "dust to dust" comparison of typical incandescents
with CFLs and see just what the total resource balance is from raw
materials, to manufacturing, to total average operational lifetime and
finally, disposal.

CFLs have some glass (coated with some kind of fluorescent material),
plastic and metal bases, and electronics. They are considerably more
complicated to dispose of cleanly than a simple glass bulb with a bit of
metal in it.

 

[Phil Allison]

"Karl Uppiano"

CFLs are useful in some applications; I use them, but they aren't for
everything. Pity that the typically scientifically clueless politicians
are attempting to take yet another decision from us. Freedom goes chip,
chip, chip.

I would like to see a "dust to dust" comparison of typical incandescents
with CFLs and see just what the total resource balance is from raw
materials, to manufacturing, to total average operational lifetime and
finally, disposal.

CFLs have some glass (coated with some kind of fluorescent material),
plastic and metal bases, and electronics. They are considerably more
complicated to dispose of cleanly than a simple glass bulb with a bit of
metal in it.

** You left out the *BIG* one.

All CFLs ( in common with all fluoros) contain mercury - claimed to be
about 10 mg of the highly toxic stuff in each one.

The EU is about to completely ban the import and export of mercury using the
RoHS legislation, excepting only certain approved uses - like bloody
billions of CFLs in private homes !!

Insane.



......... Phil

 

[Eeyore]

"Karl Uppiano"

** You left out the *BIG* one.

All CFLs ( in common with all fluoros) contain mercury - claimed to be
about 10 mg of the highly toxic stuff in each one.

More like 4mg.

Philips is now using 2mg IIRC.

Graham

 

[Karl Uppiano]

"Karl Uppiano"


** You left out the *BIG* one.

All CFLs ( in common with all fluoros) contain mercury - claimed to be
about 10 mg of the highly toxic stuff in each one.

What is the mercury used for?

The EU is about to completely ban the import and export of mercury using
the RoHS legislation, excepting only certain approved uses - like
bloody billions of CFLs in private homes !!

If it weren't for the disastrous unintended consequences, most legislation
would have no effect at all.

Insane.

Perhaps, but they'll think they made a difference when solar cycle begins to
decline again, and the planet starts to cool off again.

 

[Phil Allison]

"Karl Uppiano"
"Phil Allison"

What is the mercury used for?

** You stupid or something ??

What the hell do you think a fluoro light really is ?

Go look it up - fool.



........ Phil

 

[JANA]

I just found out something this morning with the policies of these CFL
lamps. The governments are going to put in place programs for the handling
and disposal of the warn out and damaged CFL's. It seems that they have no
idea at this time of what this plan will be. One speculation is that they
will be sending them off to a third world country to be disposed of.

Apparently, it has been figured out that the cost of the plan is going to be
far greater than if they left things alone! And, they will be adding a worse
and different type of pollution problem to deal with.

This plan is being enforced in all of North America, and most of the
Commonwealth countries around the world. From what I heard, they want the
general public and businesses to use less electricity, so that more can be
sold to large industries for manufacturing. They will also be able to raise
the price per kw/hr without the public noticing it, because they will be
using a little less.

Another issue that gets to me is the one with the new hybrid cars, and
ethanol. This is a long issue, but I will make a short comment.

After about 4 to 6 years with an average use of about 16,000 to 20,000 km
per year, the batteries in the hybrid cars will have to be changed. There is
going to be a huge disposal problem with these. The chemicals used in
battery technology is some of the worse kinds for the environment.

As for the consumer, if he wants to keep his car, the battery replacement
cost is going to be in the average range of $6000 US. If he trades his car
with the used batteries, this cost will be deducted from the trade-in value.
If you calculate the usage cost of fuel for the average person, this
approach does not pay!

When making ethanol fuel from corn, the energy used, is more than what can
be had from the ethanol. The pollution caused from burning ethanol is worse
than from petrol. The chemicals released from the burned ethanol are
dangerous for people with respiratory problems. These chemicals are also
harmful to plant life.


--

JANA
_____

If the switch that is series with the light bulb has a night light in it,
the current pass of the night light will cause the CFL to flicker.

If the CFL is connected to a switch that is electronic, the small leakage
of
the electronics will cause the CFL to flicker or in some cases to not turn
off.

Regular CFL's cannot be used on standard light dimmers and many of the
electronic timers. This is a big inconvenience for many people.

When regular lamps become unavailable, I can see a lot of problems with
these new types of lamps. The biggest one will be the pollution from
their
disposal. They use mercury, phosphors, and many types of materials that
are
very harmful for the environment. There is also the electronics circuit
board, which contain components that have the same recycling problem as
used
in most electronics. Even though they last longer, when they are
eventually
put out in to the garbage, they will eventually end up in the land fills.
They are going to be a very big problem compared to the simple light bulb
that was made of simple glass and metals.

Regular light bulb materials are about 85% recyclable. There are almost no
materials in these that are bad for the environment. Most CFL's materials
are not recyclable, and their materials are very polluting.

It looks very strong that the government is pushing the CFL's to save some
electricity to sell to large industry. This is the only answer that is
logical. There are NO green house gasses from using regular light bulbs.
When more electricity is sold to industry, the pollution problems from its
generation will actually increase, unless the generation is from water
power, or nuclear power.

These are my (well known) views also, but I fear we are squeaking like
little lost mice in the dark ...

The general public are not told - and would not understand anyway - the
wider implications of these knee-jerk government interventions in our lives.
All too often, they are poorly thought through, and are dreamed up as a
response to the latest bit of pseudo science to hit the news stands. At the
moment, anything with the words 'green' or 'eco' or 'environment' or 'global
warming' are fair game for this sort of nonsense, and to add to its
'validity' in the public's eyes, they've already started inventing new bits
of techno-babble like 'carbon footprint' and 'carbon offsetting' to justify
what amounts to little more than opinions by a vociferous band of scientists
getting paid large amounts of money and credibility ratings, to promote the
government line. As you say, these CFLs are just trading one form of alleged
pollution, for another definite one ...

Arfa

Arfa

 

[JANA]

I had a reason to cross post. The question was in many other groups, and
there is a serious problem with the new regulations concerning the CFL's.

This was a small item, and there was no harm done. I had many positive
responses in my favour from this post. I guess you are in favour of the
pollution problems that these CFL's will be causing.

Just click on the "Next" button if you feel annoyed!

--

JANA
_____


JANA wrote on 6/26/07 7:50 AM:

If the switch that is series with the light bulb has a night light in it,
the current pass of the night light will cause the CFL to flicker.

<<SNIP>>

Couldn't you think of any more newsgroups to cross-post to???
24hoursupport.helpdesk,
aus.electronics,
misc.invest.stocks,
rec.audio.tech,
sci.electronics.basics,
sci.electronics.components,
sci.electronics.repair,
sci.engr.television.advanced

 

[Eeyore]

I just found out something this morning with the policies of these CFL
lamps. The governments are going to put in place programs for the handling
and disposal of the warn out and damaged CFL's. It seems that they have no
idea at this time of what this plan will be.

In Europe it's called WEEE but it's fucked up.

One speculation is that they will be sending them off to a third world country
to be disposed of.

You're an idiot.

Graham