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Strange problem with low energy light bulb

  • Thread starter Seán O'Leathlóbhair
  • Start date
A

Arfa Daily

Jan 1, 1970
0
Eeyore said:
Not really.

The heat from most lamps hangs around at ceiling level. It does sod all to
warm
a room.

I suggest you compare sitting in front of a 1kw bar electric fire to
switching
on ten 100w light bulbs to see how true that is.

Graham
I'm not so sure about that. Go to downtown Vegas and walk under the entrance
awnings of some of the 'legacy' casinos that still have incandescent
lighting rather than LEDs, and then tell me that it doesn't feel like having
an electric fire a few feet over your head ...

Arfa
 
A

Arfa Daily

Jan 1, 1970
0
Richard Crowley said:
Look at all the energy that is wasted producing light! :)

What happens to all the 'waste' heat produced in vacuum "filled" bulbs that
used to be, if not still are, produced for garden use ? It can't be radiated
into the atmosphere, as the envelope is substantially cold to the touch.
Does the fact that it must be hanging around in the vicinity of the
filament, modify the power consumption of the lamp compared to its light
output ? Does this make it a low(er) energy lamp? Why does the heat from the
anode of a power tube readily radiate across the vacuum, but the heat from
the filament of a vacuum light bulb seems not to? d;~}

Arfa
 
S

Sam Goldwasser

Jan 1, 1970
0
webpa said:
You have a more complicated circuit than you think. If you have 3
switches, each capable of turning the lamp on and off irrespective of
the positions of the other two switches, then the switches are not
directly connected to the lamp. The switches are connected to a (-n
electromechanical) relay or a solid-state relay. The relay provides
power to the lamp...the switches control the relay. I suspect leakage
somewhere in wiring between the switch(s) and the relay...which, if
solid-state, may require only a few milliamps to trip the relay.
Could also be that the control relay is defective somehow...

No, they only need be mechanical switches.

Google "3-way switch" and "4-way switch".

Or see the info at:

http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/appfaq.htm#afconfofm

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name AND either lasers or electronics is included in the
subject line. Or, you can contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.
 
A

Arfa Daily

Jan 1, 1970
0
R! said:
I think CFL's just don't wash..

I have bought several in various price ranges...

The really cheep ones only last about 3 months...

The medium priced ones last about 1 year to 18 months.

The one I paid the most for has been going for about 5 years.

Based on this it only makes sense to buy the longest lasting ones...

At $22.00 US I could buy aproximately 88, 60W 120V lamps.

Which gives me 88,000 hours of light.

The life of the lamp that has lated five years was promoted at

30,000 hours...

So that makes the inital cost about 1.5 times as much as the standard
bulb.

I also use 2, 100w 120 lamps as a heat source to keep the water pipes
from freezing in really cold weather...

I haven't figured out a safer or more economical way to heat a 5' x 5'
pump house.

R!

Remember also that incandescent lamp lifetime is a cost / commercial thing.
Extra long life lamps for critical locations are available.

Just another little spanner in the works. When the governments try to
actually introduce the ban on incandescents, will it just be on
'conventional' spheres, or will they try to do it for halogen and spot
decorative lamps as well? I would think that there is a huge useage of these
lamps now, since all the big DIY warehouses started selling both fancy light
fittings with multiple halogens in them, and cheap ceiling downlighter kits,
with 3 or 5 halogens in them. I have two light fittings in my lounge with
five 20 watt halogens in each, plus two 60 watt spots. Over my stairs, I
have five ceiling downlighters, and then another five along the upstairs
corridor. There are another three in the main bedroom, and four in the
shower room. If these lamps get banned as well, then I'm either going to
have a lot of useless holes in the ceiling, or going to have to replace them
with poor colourmatch LED fixtures ...

Arfa
 
S

Sam Goldwasser

Jan 1, 1970
0
R! said:
I think CFL's just don't wash..

I have bought several in various price ranges...

The really cheep ones only last about 3 months...

The medium priced ones last about 1 year to 18 months.

The one I paid the most for has been going for about 5 years.

Based on this it only makes sense to buy the longest lasting ones...

At $22.00 US I could buy aproximately 88, 60W 120V lamps.

Which gives me 88,000 hours of light.

The life of the lamp that has lated five years was promoted at

30,000 hours...

So that makes the inital cost about 1.5 times as much as the standard
bulb.

Cost of 60W incandescent lamp: $0.25 cents.
Cost of electricity to run a 1000 hour 60W lamp over its life at 10
cents/kWh: $6.
Total cost over life: $6.25.

Cost of electricity and lamps to run 60W lamps over 30,000 hours: $187.50.

Cost of 60W equivalent CFL + electricity over 30,000 hours assuming it
uses 25 percent of the power of a 60 W incandescent lamp: $22 + $45 = $67.

Around here, good quality spiral CFLs with 5,000 to 8,000 hour claimed
lifetimes cost around $5-6 in hardware stores (much less at large home
centers).

But even at $6, a 60 W equivalent CFL just about pays for itself if it
only lasts slightly longer than one incandecent lamp. They typically
last much longer - guessing 2 or 3 years of normal use which is probably
close to their claimed 5,000 to 8,000 hour life.
I also use 2, 100w 120 lamps as a heat source to keep the water pipes
from freezing in really cold weather...

I haven't figured out a safer or more economical way to heat a 5' x 5'
pump house.

Now, if you're really using the waste heat of the incandescent lamp - which
accounts for around 95 percent of the power used - then the savings will
not be as great. But although resistance heating is 100 percent efficient
as far as conversion of power to heat is concerned, heat pumps and even
gas or oil ends up being cheaper.

Of course, if it's hot and you need to run the A/C, you're paying twice!

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name AND either lasers or electronics is included in the
subject line. Or, you can contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.
 
A

Arfa Daily

Jan 1, 1970
0
You have a more complicated circuit than you think. If you have 3
switches, each capable of turning the lamp on and off irrespective of
the positions of the other two switches, then the switches are not
directly connected to the lamp. The switches are connected to a (-n
electromechanical) relay or a solid-state relay. The relay provides
power to the lamp...the switches control the relay. I suspect leakage
somewhere in wiring between the switch(s) and the relay...which, if
solid-state, may require only a few milliamps to trip the relay.
Could also be that the control relay is defective somehow.

More complicated than the common two switch set-up but not necessarily
that complicated. I have not traced the wiring to be sure how this
particular installation works but I am reasonably sure that it does
not involve a relay. I have researched how it may work and I have
described that elsewhere in the thread. The switches need to be more
complicated than typical. They need two inputs and two outputs. Each
input is always connected to one of the outputs but the connections
are reversed when the switch is changed. The live goes to one input
of the first switch. The two outputs of the first switch are
connected to the two inputs of the second. This continues through as
many switches as you wish. Finally one output of the last switch is
connected to the bulb. The neutral is connected normally. So, if any
switch is changed, the live will go down the other wire through the
rest of the system. Since only one output of the last switch is
connected to the bulb, if it was on, it goes off but of it was off it
goes on. This set-up is rare in the UK but the necessary switches are
available, I have seen them in my local hardware shop. They can be
used for the more typical two switch set-up by simply ignoring one of
the terminals. I have read that this set-up is more commonly used in
some other countries such as Spain.

--
Seán Ó Leathlóbhair


And here is the way it's done - no magic, no relays or electronic control
circuits - just switches and wire ...

http://www.electrical-online.com/4waydiagram.htm

or

http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/courses/p230/switches/SwitchesTut.html

Arfa
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Arfa said:
What happens to all the 'waste' heat produced in vacuum "filled" bulbs that
used to be, if not still are, produced for garden use ?

What vacuum ?

It can't be radiated
into the atmosphere, as the envelope is substantially cold to the touch.
Does the fact that it must be hanging around in the vicinity of the
filament, modify the power consumption of the lamp compared to its light
output ? Does this make it a low(er) energy lamp? Why does the heat from the
anode of a power tube readily radiate across the vacuum, but the heat from
the filament of a vacuum light bulb seems not to? d;~}

Both do. It's called infra red radiation.

There's also conduction too.

Graham
 
P

petrus bitbyter

Jan 1, 1970
0
"webpa" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
I am not sure if this is an appropriate group for this question. If
not, please suggest a better one.

I have a light in the house which I have wanted to switch to a low
energy bulb for a long time. The hold up was that I needed a very
small bulb. At last, I have found a small enough bulb but something
odd occurred as soon as I put it in.

When it is switched on, it works as expected.

When it is switched off, it blinks every few seconds. So, I guess
that there must be a problem with the switch If it is passing nothing
then it would seem impossible for the bulb to do anything. I did not
notice any problem with the previous incandescent bulb but I guess
that if the switch is leaking a tiny amount, the filament would glow
too little to be seen.

I have a few questions:

What is going on? Is a tiny current leaking, building up a charge in
a capacitor somewhere until a sufficient voltage builds up to spark in
the bulb and discharge the capacitor, and then the cycle repeats.

Is it safe?

Will it wear out the bulb very fast?

Is it likely to be enough to replace the switch? (Actually three
switches can turn this bulb on and off).

Might I have to replace the wiring? (Much harder than just replacing
the switches)

| You have a more complicated circuit than you think. If you have 3
| switches, each capable of turning the lamp on and off irrespective of
| the positions of the other two switches, then the switches are not
| directly connected to the lamp. The switches are connected to a (-n
| electromechanical) relay or a solid-state relay. The relay provides
| power to the lamp...the switches control the relay. I suspect leakage
| somewhere in wiring between the switch(s) and the relay...which, if
| solid-state, may require only a few milliamps to trip the relay.
| Could also be that the control relay is defective somehow...

Don't think so. The first course on lighting installation I learned about
crossswitches already. They could be used to turn on and off a lamp from one
to three or more places. Effectively they are dpdt switches. You can of
course use it for spst or simply on/off switching. Next possibility is using
it for spdt like the well known two switches landing light. When you need
more switches the dpdt switches are required.

o--+----+ o----+----+----o
+--o--__ | +-o--__ | | __--o--+
hot | o--)--+ o--+-)--+-)----o |
--+ | | | | | | | .-.
| | | | | | | +--( X )---
| o--+ | o--+ | | +---o | '-' neutral
+--o--__ +---o--__ | | __--o---+
o-----+ o----+ +-----o

Three switch landing light using dpdt switches. The right and left switches
are wired for spdt.


o-----+ o-----+
+--o--__ | +-o--__ |
hot o--+ o--+--)--+ o--+--)-------o .-. neutral
--o--__ | | | | __--o--( X )---
o--+ o--+ | o--+ +-------o '-'
spdt +--o--__ +----o--__ | spdt
o-----+ o-----+
dpdt dpdt

Four switch landing light. You can repeat the dpdt- or crosswitch as often
as you need.

created by Andy´s ASCII-Circuit v1.24.140803 Beta www.tech-chat.de

petrus bitbyter
 
K

Ken Weitzel

Jan 1, 1970
0
R! said:
I think CFL's just don't wash..

I have bought several in various price ranges...

The really cheep ones only last about 3 months...

The medium priced ones last about 1 year to 18 months.

The one I paid the most for has been going for about 5 years.

Based on this it only makes sense to buy the longest lasting ones...

At $22.00 US I could buy aproximately 88, 60W 120V lamps.

Which gives me 88,000 hours of light.

The life of the lamp that has lated five years was promoted at

30,000 hours...

So that makes the inital cost about 1.5 times as much as the standard
bulb.

I also use 2, 100w 120 lamps as a heat source to keep the water pipes
from freezing in really cold weather...

I haven't figured out a safer or more economical way to heat a 5' x 5'
pump house.

Hi...

May I respectfully suggest you look into car battery warmer blankets
as a possibly more efficient/reliable source of heat for your
water pipes?

Take care.

Ken
 
A

Arfa Daily

Jan 1, 1970
0
Eeyore said:
What vacuum ?



Both do. It's called infra red radiation.

There's also conduction too.

Graham

Agreed that *should* be the case, but the fact is that the envelope of a
vacuum light bulb remains substantially cold in use, whilst a 6L6's envelope
will take the skin off your fingertips after a few minutes use ...

Arfa
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Half a Brain Daily"

Agreed that *should* be the case, but the fact is that the envelope of a
vacuum light bulb remains substantially cold in use,


** Only true if the bulb is made from a special grade of quartz glass with
very low IR absorption.

Eg: " Infrasil ".

whilst a 6L6's envelope will take the skin off your fingertips after a few
minutes use ...


** Made with IR absorbing glass, as are nearly all light bulbs.

Some low powered lamps and most "pilot " bulbs are vacuum lamps and they get
damn hot.



....... Phil
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Arfa said:
vacuum, but the >> heat from the filament of a vacuum light bulb seems not
to? d;~}


Agreed that *should* be the case, but the fact is that the envelope of a
vacuum light bulb remains substantially cold in use, whilst a 6L6's envelope
will take the skin off your fingertips after a few minutes use ...

What lighbulbs have *vacuums* in the bulb ? It's normally filled with a
non-reactive gas mixture.

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Sam said:
Cost of 60W incandescent lamp: $0.25 cents.

On what planet is that ?

More like £0.45 here.

Cost of electricity to run a 1000 hour 60W lamp over its life at 10
cents/kWh: $6.
£6

Total cost over life: $6.25.
£6.45

Cost of electricity and lamps to run 60W lamps over 30,000 hours: $187.50.
£193.50


Cost of 60W equivalent CFL + electricity over 30,000 hours assuming it
uses 25 percent of the power of a 60 W incandescent lamp: $22

£ 1.95 for qty 5, 6000 hr Philips bulbs
+ $45
£45

= $67.

£ 46.95

Around here, good quality spiral CFLs with 5,000 to 8,000 hour claimed
lifetimes cost around $5-6 in hardware stores (much less at large home
centers).

£ 0.39 @ Morrisons for Philips.

So £ 193.50 for incandescents vs £ 46.95 for CFLs.

Graham
 
F

Franc Zabkar

Jan 1, 1970
0
Just another little spanner in the works. When the governments try to
actually introduce the ban on incandescents, will it just be on
'conventional' spheres, or will they try to do it for halogen and spot
decorative lamps as well? I would think that there is a huge useage of these
lamps now, since all the big DIY warehouses started selling both fancy light
fittings with multiple halogens in them, and cheap ceiling downlighter kits,
with 3 or 5 halogens in them. I have two light fittings in my lounge with
five 20 watt halogens in each, plus two 60 watt spots. Over my stairs, I
have five ceiling downlighters, and then another five along the upstairs
corridor. There are another three in the main bedroom, and four in the
shower room. If these lamps get banned as well, then I'm either going to
have a lot of useless holes in the ceiling, or going to have to replace them
with poor colourmatch LED fixtures ...

Arfa

The July 2007 issue of Silicon Chip magazine has an article entitled
"A LED to replace 50W halogens?"

It talks about Osram's soon to be released "Ostar Lighting LED" which
is rated for 1000 lumens. A 50W halogen produces 900lm.

http://www.reuk.co.uk/Osram-Ostar-Lighting-LED.htm

- Franc Zabkar
 
A

Arfa Daily

Jan 1, 1970
0
Phil Allison said:
"Half a Brain Daily"




** Only true if the bulb is made from a special grade of quartz glass with
very low IR absorption.

Eg: " Infrasil ".




** Made with IR absorbing glass, as are nearly all light bulbs.

Some low powered lamps and most "pilot " bulbs are vacuum lamps and they
get damn hot.



...... Phil
Ok, I'll buy that.

Arfa
 
A

Arfa Daily

Jan 1, 1970
0
Franc Zabkar said:
The July 2007 issue of Silicon Chip magazine has an article entitled
"A LED to replace 50W halogens?"

It talks about Osram's soon to be released "Ostar Lighting LED" which
is rated for 1000 lumens. A 50W halogen produces 900lm.

http://www.reuk.co.uk/Osram-Ostar-Lighting-LED.htm

- Franc Zabkar

Interesting Franc. Stuff like this keps dropping through my door too. I saw
one the other day, where the LED chips are arranged around a sort of 'tree'
to try to make it semi omni-directional, like an incandescent. However, good
as that new LED halogen look-alike that you have pointed us to look at is,
in terms of light output, I think that the real downside is contained in the
first line where it tells us that it produces " ...... of cold white light."
There is a shop in my village that has similar LED halogen replacements in
their window display, and I have a friend who has fitted LED downlighters to
his computer shop. Both look absolutely awful in terms of colour rendition
and how they make other things look - particularly people ! I think that
although this might ultimately be the better way to go over CFL's, the LED
manufacturers are still going to have to do a lot of work to improve the
colour rendition characteristics to make them acceptable by the general
public. I wonder if there will be exemptions, like for photography lamps, or
studio or theatre lighting lamps ?

Arfa
 
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