Standby Generator Starting in VERY cold weather

[Ignoramus607]

Let me start a little tangential thread. My generator can be started
in merely cold weather by use of glow plugs. But suppose that weather
becomes extremely cold, such as -20F (It happened here). In times of
outages, starting a generator becomes extremely urgent due to quick
cooling of the house.

Should I expect to be able to start my Onan DJE with just glow plugs?

(I know that I should try that)

If not, I have a cheap propane torch with little gas bottles. Would it
be able to warm the generator and air in that enclosure, sufficiently?

What is the practical thing to do under the circumstances to get the
generator going?

The genset is in an enclosure.

i

 

[Steve Spence]

Let me start a little tangential thread. My generator can be started
in merely cold weather by use of glow plugs. But suppose that weather
becomes extremely cold, such as -20F (It happened here). In times of
outages, starting a generator becomes extremely urgent due to quick
cooling of the house.

Should I expect to be able to start my Onan DJE with just glow plugs?

(I know that I should try that)

If not, I have a cheap propane torch with little gas bottles. Would it
be able to warm the generator and air in that enclosure, sufficiently?

What is the practical thing to do under the circumstances to get the
generator going?

The genset is in an enclosure.

i

Park your gas grill in that enclosure and warm up the air inside. Helps
if the crankcase oil gets warm as well, so the engine spins faster when
cranking. That generates more heat for combustion.

 

[Ignoramus607]

Park your gas grill in that enclosure and warm up the air inside. Helps
if the crankcase oil gets warm as well, so the engine spins faster when
cranking. That generates more heat for combustion.

I could almost park my enclosure inside the gas grill.

Seriously, I think that I will try to look for a torch that connects
to a propane cylinder. My grill is based on NG, but I have a couple of
gas cylinders lying around.

i

 

[Steve Spence]

I could almost park my enclosure inside the gas grill.

Seriously, I think that I will try to look for a torch that connects
to a propane cylinder. My grill is based on NG, but I have a couple of
gas cylinders lying around.

i

My generator is bigger than 10 bbq grills, so my vision of what you have
may be off.

maybe this will help. http://www.mrheater.com/products.asp

 

[Ecnerwal]

Couple of possibilities, some much more suited to a "backup" than an
"off-grid" setup (burning KWhs).

The simple one. Your portable propane torch, direct it, lit, into the
air intake, warming the intake air marginally. A common, quick, safe
approach. Oversize the starting battery and cables, be sure that all
battery & cable connections are clean and tight so that the starter is
getting full power, use synthetic oil (at least during the winter) and
you should be fine for most days. Most days you should not even need the
torch.

The slightly more benign (no open flames) version of the above eats more
battery, using a heating element in the intake manifold. My backhoe
supposedly has this, but it appears to be broken, and I have not fixed
it yet. Factory ether injection was also an option on the backhoe (but
there are no glow plugs on it). I think the smart money would use
separate batteries for cranking and heating, though the backhoe is not
set up that way.

The consumptive one - slap one of those engine block or oil pan heaters
on an appropriate part of the thing. Waste electricity keeping it warm -
when the power goes out, it will be warm, you can start it, if you don't
wait too long. Insulating the enclosure helps, but it's still power
wasting...

Since you are on-grid a quality (smart) battery maintainer, or a dumb
charger hooked to a timer switch will help keep the battery up to snuff.
Off-grid a solar panel (either small enough that it can't overcharge, or
with a charge controller to serve as the "smart" charger) will do the
same.

Put a solar air heater on the south side of the well-insulated
enclosure, if it gets any sun to speak of. Only works on sunny days.

Variations on "airplane tales form the arctic" - drain the oil, keep it
in the house. Have a camp stove or barbecue to heat the oil before
pouring it in the generator just prior to starting it. Place oil lamps
or other simple heaters under the engine, inside insulated enclosure. A
hassle, and/or a fire risk. One of those propane catalytic heaters might
lower the fire risk (no open flame), but it's yet another fuel to keep
around.

A small gasoline generator would be another option (again, two fuels) -
easier to start in the cold, provides heat and power to help get the
diesel up and running - or set up a gasoline engine as a "pony" motor to
actually serve as the starter for the diesel (a common older setup on
tractors).

Dropping the enclosure into the ground (ie, the generator is in the
"basement" of a power shack, or its own "root cellar" or "storm cellar")
helps to moderate the temperature a great deal if the basement reaches
below frost line, and the walls/roof are well insulated. This can also
make it a lot quieter, and/or less obvious (you still need air in, and
air/exhaust out).

 

[Ignoramus607]

My generator is bigger than 10 bbq grills, so my vision of what you have
may be off.

maybe this will help. http://www.mrheater.com/products.asp

I was thinking about something like ebay item

http://cgi.ebay.com/Propane-Torch-Ice-Melter-Weed-Burner-Killer_W0QQitemZ7567666114

I could carefully use it to warm air inside and heat the genset
some. (by inserting it for a short period of time, not by continuous
fire).

i

 

[Ignoramus607]

Couple of possibilities, some much more suited to a "backup" than an
"off-grid" setup (burning KWhs).

The simple one. Your portable propane torch, direct it, lit, into the
air intake, warming the intake air marginally.

Makes sense. Is warming of the generator itself (crankcase etc, not
only the incoming air) necessary?

A common, quick, safe approach. Oversize the starting battery and
cables, be sure that all battery & cable connections are clean and
tight so that the starter is getting full power

I did that already, I use 1 gauge gattery cables with proper lugs,
etc.

, use synthetic oil (at least during the winter) and you should be
fine for most days. Most days you should not even need the torch.

Sounds good. I will experiment this winter.

The slightly more benign (no open flames) version of the above eats more
battery, using a heating element in the intake manifold. My backhoe
supposedly has this, but it appears to be broken, and I have not fixed
it yet. Factory ether injection was also an option on the backhoe (but
there are no glow plugs on it). I think the smart money would use
separate batteries for cranking and heating, though the backhoe is not
set up that way.

I agree.

The consumptive one - slap one of those engine block or oil pan heaters
on an appropriate part of the thing. Waste electricity keeping it warm -
when the power goes out, it will be warm, you can start it, if you don't
wait too long. Insulating the enclosure helps, but it's still power
wasting...

Since you are on-grid a quality (smart) battery maintainer, or a dumb
charger hooked to a timer switch will help keep the battery up to
snuff.

I have a smart trickle charger (with built in timet to wake up and
recharge). I already hooked it all up.

Variations on "airplane tales form the arctic" - drain the oil, keep it
in the house. Have a camp stove or barbecue to heat the oil before
pouring it in the generator just prior to starting it. Place oil lamps
or other simple heaters under the engine, inside insulated enclosure. A
hassle, and/or a fire risk. One of those propane catalytic heaters might
lower the fire risk (no open flame), but it's yet another fuel to keep
around.

A small gasoline generator would be another option (again, two fuels) -
easier to start in the cold, provides heat and power to help get the
diesel up and running - or set up a gasoline engine as a "pony" motor to
actually serve as the starter for the diesel (a common older setup on
tractors).

I have a small gas generator, a 40 year old Sears generator that
I bought for $3, but I need to fix it.

Dropping the enclosure into the ground (ie, the generator is in the
"basement" of a power shack, or its own "root cellar" or "storm cellar")
helps to moderate the temperature a great deal if the basement reaches
below frost line, and the walls/roof are well insulated. This can also
make it a lot quieter, and/or less obvious (you still need air in, and
air/exhaust out).

What do you think about a propane torch like this?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Propane-Torch-I...567666114QQcategoryZ61574QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

i

 

[[email protected]]

... slap one of those engine block or oil pan heaters on an appropriate
part of the thing. Waste electricity keeping it warm -

My diesel tractor has a 460 W block heater with no thermostat. This helps:

http://www.countrysupply.com/products/sku-BEW19.html

Nick

 

[Ecnerwal]

Makes sense. Is warming of the generator itself (crankcase etc, not
only the incoming air) necessary?

If the starting system is up to snuff, and the oil is synthetic,
preheating just the combustion air should be enough for most cases. If
you find that that won't cut it below temperature X, _safely_ heating
the entire enclosure is probably your best bet. You do pretty much need
to try things on an individual setup to find what actually works.

What do you think about a propane torch like this?

That a catalytic propane heater (looks like a "bug-eye") or a torpedo
heater (but those usually need electricity) is much less likely to get
you a visit from the boys in the bright red shiny trucks. "Weed burners"
are "massive" open flame - they are also a pain to get lit in the cold.
Pointing one into your generator shed is pretty close to arson. The
ceramics folks I know use these to fire their trash-can-kilns (lined
with ceramic fiber blanket). 2-5 feet of flame is not atypical. Use a
nice, normal, small propane torch if you're pointing a torch down the
intake, and a catalytic heater if you're trying for gas heat.

Also, be sure to hit your diesel fuel supply with "winterizer"
anti-gelling additives, often also with biocide/stabilizers. Be sure
that the motor has run on winterized fuel before winter, so the fuel
system on the engine is not full of goo when it gets cold.

 

[Ignoramus607]

If the starting system is up to snuff, and the oil is synthetic,
preheating just the combustion air should be enough for most cases. If
you find that that won't cut it below temperature X, _safely_ heating
the entire enclosure is probably your best bet. You do pretty much need
to try things on an individual setup to find what actually works.


That a catalytic propane heater (looks like a "bug-eye") or a torpedo
heater (but those usually need electricity) is much less likely to get
you a visit from the boys in the bright red shiny trucks. "Weed burners"
are "massive" open flame - they are also a pain to get lit in the cold.
Pointing one into your generator shed is pretty close to arson. The
ceramics folks I know use these to fire their trash-can-kilns (lined
with ceramic fiber blanket). 2-5 feet of flame is not atypical. Use a
nice, normal, small propane torch if you're pointing a torch down the
intake, and a catalytic heater if you're trying for gas heat.

Also, be sure to hit your diesel fuel supply with "winterizer"
anti-gelling additives, often also with biocide/stabilizers. Be sure
that the motor has run on winterized fuel before winter, so the fuel
system on the engine is not full of goo when it gets cold.

Thanks.

I did not realize that those torches are so powerful.

The fuel I have is Diesel Fuel Winter Blend. Shouldn't this be good by
itself?

i
--

 

[Bruce in Alaska]

I was thinking about something like ebay item

http://cgi.ebay.com/Propane-Torch-Ice-Melter-Weed-Burner-Killer_W0QQitemZ75676
66114

I could carefully use it to warm air inside and heat the genset
some. (by inserting it for a short period of time, not by continuous
fire).

i

Hey Ignore, why bother with, all that heating of the encloser, heating
the Oil, ether, ect. Your DJE has Manifold Air Heaters on the Intake
Manifold, as well as Glowplugs on each cyl. If these are working, you
really will not have a problem starting the engine, if your battery
has any stiffness to it at all. The only thing it takes to make a
diesel fire, is HOT AIR and FUEL. If you supply both IT WILL START.
The Glowplugs, and Intake Manifold Heaters are really nothing more than
a way to get HOT AIR into the cyl. If the Air is HOT, IT WILL FIRE,
every time. The handheld torch will also make for HOT AIR down the
Intake Manifold, as long as you REMOVE the Air Filter while using
the torch. If you don't remove the Air Filter, your likely to start
the filter on fire with the torch. Not really a good idea. Never
use ether on a xDJx series engine, as you will likely crack a piston
or start the Air Filter burning, should you get a flashback up the
Intake valve. Again, not a really good thing to happen. These are
really simple engines to operate if properly maintained. I used to
have a pair of DJC's and never had any trouble getting them going
even when it was -40F. At that temp 5W40 oil is manditory however,
or your likely to have significant bearing wear on startup, unless
you have a prelube cycle on your autostart system. Diesel engine
cold Wx starting isn't Rocket Science, but it does require that
one understands the basics of Diesel Engineering.

Bruce in alaska

 

[Ignoramus607]

Hey Ignore, why bother with, all that heating of the encloser, heating
the Oil, ether, ect. Your DJE has Manifold Air Heaters on the Intake
Manifold, as well as Glowplugs on each cyl. If these are working, you
really will not have a problem starting the engine, if your battery
has any stiffness to it at all. The only thing it takes to make a
diesel fire, is HOT AIR and FUEL. If you supply both IT WILL START.
The Glowplugs, and Intake Manifold Heaters are really nothing more than
a way to get HOT AIR into the cyl. If the Air is HOT, IT WILL FIRE,
every time. The handheld torch will also make for HOT AIR down the
Intake Manifold, as long as you REMOVE the Air Filter while using
the torch. If you don't remove the Air Filter, your likely to start
the filter on fire with the torch. Not really a good idea. Never
use ether on a xDJx series engine, as you will likely crack a piston
or start the Air Filter burning, should you get a flashback up the
Intake valve. Again, not a really good thing to happen. These are
really simple engines to operate if properly maintained. I used to
have a pair of DJC's and never had any trouble getting them going
even when it was -40F. At that temp 5W40 oil is manditory however,
or your likely to have significant bearing wear on startup, unless
you have a prelube cycle on your autostart system. Diesel engine
cold Wx starting isn't Rocket Science, but it does require that
one understands the basics of Diesel Engineering.

I see. My glowplugs are working and I had no trouble starting my
genset in moderately cold weather (about 5F). Seems like I am worrying
about nothing!

Thanks Bruce...

i

 

[RF Dude]

When I was a temp working in the railway, we used these large propane
torches to de-ice the switch machines. Biggest problem was snow getting into
the points and turning to ice. Worked pretty well. And if the wooden
railway ties caught fire there was plenty of snow around to put it out.

 

[Mark & Mary Ann Weiss]

Let me start a little tangential thread. My generator can be started
in merely cold weather by use of glow plugs. But suppose that weather
becomes extremely cold, such as -20F (It happened here). In times of
outages, starting a generator becomes extremely urgent due to quick
cooling of the house.

Should I expect to be able to start my Onan DJE with just glow plugs?

One thing that will help with the cranking speed is to use synthetic oil in
the crankcase. I use it on my generator and on all our vehicles that don't
leak or burn oil and it's great. Cranks over in -15ºF temps just as well as
it does when the temp is 80ºF.


--
Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

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