Maker Pro
Maker Pro

Standby Generator Starting in cold weather

I

Ignoramus607

Jan 1, 1970
0
Army diesel and mogas trucks have glowplugs and preheaters but in sub zero
weather nothing would get them started except blowing either straight into
the intake manifold while cranking the starter. Maybe they were designed for
it, I don't know.

Well, blowing hot air into intakes is not the same as using ether. Hot
air does not explode like ether does.

I know that my Onan DJC starts at at least 0F without hot air. I do
not recall trying it at colder temps, but I suspect that I tried that
and it worked. I will try that this winter.

i
 
S

Steve Spence

Jan 1, 1970
0
Me said:
VERY BAD Idea, that.....Ether is a good way to kill te engine ....
especially is you don't understand the reasons that it works and why it
would be a VERY BAD Idea.........


Me

Ether is the only way to get a cold diesel truck running in our end of
the country. It's like a chainsaw, safe if you know what you are doing.
 
S

Steve Spence

Jan 1, 1970
0
Newby said:
Please enlighten us (me) why ether is a bad idea.

Thanks.

If you have glow plugs, ether can ignite when you don't want it to. On a
non heated diesel, ether is a common engine starter. Many folks who have
never had to start a diesel at -40 will tell you ether is bad .....
 
M

Me

Jan 1, 1970
0
Steve Spence said:
Ether is the only way to get a cold diesel truck running in our end of
the country. It's like a chainsaw, safe if you know what you are doing.

--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html

No, ether is the only way, YOU have figured out, to start that
2-71 Jimmy engine on your genset. There are giant differences
between your 2 cycle Jimmy and any 4 cycle diesel, in starting
proceedures. Also your 2-71 isn't naturally asperated, as it has
a Geartrain Driven Blower, which makes it different, in starting in cold
Wx, from any naturally asperated diesel engine. If you have an
Exhaust driven Turbocharger, you would be looking at another
basic cold Wx starting proceedure, altogether. These things are
just not as generic as some folks think......


Me
 
M

Me

Jan 1, 1970
0
Then explain to me why MANY deisel engines came from the factory with
ether start???
Works good on a deisel if done right - but it IS murder on spark
ignition gasoline engines.

More like "Just a few" come with Ether Starting Systems, and it is
used on 2 cycle diesels, almost exclusivly. Tell us all why the
use of ether makes diesels start in extreme cold Wx? What is
it that makes ether work and regular starting proceedures not work
when the ambient temps are very low?

If you can, also expound to us all, just why ether is BAD for Gas
engines, and GOOD for diesels? Show us all your intellectual prowess.

Me
 
R

RF Dude

Jan 1, 1970
0
The old GM diesel "New Look" buses (1970's) with air starters used a
pre-plumbed ether system. Or maybe our transit authority put this in. The
ether supply was in a yellow cylinder idential to what you would see in a
hardware store for a hand held propane torch. When empty, just screw on a
new bottle.
 
More like "Just a few" come with Ether Starting Systems, and it is
used on 2 cycle diesels, almost exclusivly. Tell us all why the
use of ether makes diesels start in extreme cold Wx? What is
it that makes ether work and regular starting proceedures not work
when the ambient temps are very low?

If you can, also expound to us all, just why ether is BAD for Gas
engines, and GOOD for diesels? Show us all your intellectual prowess.

Me
OK - your snide remarks aside -
Ether lights a LOT easier than fuel oil - so when extremely cold, the
engine will warm the ether enough to fire by compression alone, while
the heat of compression is not adequate to light the fuel oil. This
is particularly effective on engines that have either no glow plugs or
defective glow plugs.

When the ether lights it goes off with a fair amount of force - which
the deisel engine is strongly enough built to handle.

In a gasoline engine ether is not lit by compression temperature, but
by spark. The gasoline engine is not designed with as much strength,
as it is designed to run at considerably lower compression ratio, and
lower cyl pressures. The burn rate/profile of a gasoline engine is
designed to provide a relatively slow rate of pressure rise, with max
pressure some 40 degrees after TDC.

Firing ether at some 10 degrees BTDC causes a VERY FAST RATE OF
PREASSURE INCREASE while the piston is still coming up. This can crack
pistons, bend rods, blow head gaskets, or crack heads. Or, with a
little bit of luck, and CAREFULL use, it will start a stubborn gas
engine as well.

Another problem with ether is it tends to wash the oil off the cyls.
This is more critical on gas engines because deisel fuel, being a
light oil, has lubricating properties that gasoline does not poses.

Also, I said many engines CAME with ether start. This is in the past.
Very few TODAY come with ether start. However, it was NOT ONLY 2
stroke deisel engines that came with ether start. It was available on
quite a few ag tractors with 4 stroke compression ignition engines -
Perkins and Cummins as well as some others.

The reason it was almost REQUIRED on the old 2 stroke jimmy is until
the engine was cranking at a good speed the blower did not have enough
effect to boost the compression pressures high enough on a very cold
engine to light the fuel. IIRC the ether was injected below the blower
on the Jimmy, directly into the manifold at the intake port. On
normally aspirated 4 stroke compression ignition engines ether is
generally injected into the intake at the air filter.
This is not adviseable, apparently, on turboed 4 strokes, particularly
with manifold mounted pre-heaters (as compared to port mounted glow
plugs)
 
M

Me

Jan 1, 1970
0
OK - your snide remarks aside -
Ether lights a LOT easier than fuel oil - so when extremely cold, the
engine will warm the ether enough to fire by compression alone, while
the heat of compression is not adequate to light the fuel oil. This
is particularly effective on engines that have either no glow plugs or
defective glow plugs.

When the ether lights it goes off with a fair amount of force - which
the deisel engine is strongly enough built to handle.

In a gasoline engine ether is not lit by compression temperature, but
by spark. The gasoline engine is not designed with as much strength,
as it is designed to run at considerably lower compression ratio, and
lower cyl pressures. The burn rate/profile of a gasoline engine is
designed to provide a relatively slow rate of pressure rise, with max
pressure some 40 degrees after TDC.

Firing ether at some 10 degrees BTDC causes a VERY FAST RATE OF
PREASSURE INCREASE while the piston is still coming up. This can crack
pistons, bend rods, blow head gaskets, or crack heads. Or, with a
little bit of luck, and CAREFULL use, it will start a stubborn gas
engine as well.

Another problem with ether is it tends to wash the oil off the cyls.
This is more critical on gas engines because deisel fuel, being a
light oil, has lubricating properties that gasoline does not poses.

Also, I said many engines CAME with ether start. This is in the past.
Very few TODAY come with ether start. However, it was NOT ONLY 2
stroke deisel engines that came with ether start. It was available on
quite a few ag tractors with 4 stroke compression ignition engines -
Perkins and Cummins as well as some others.

The reason it was almost REQUIRED on the old 2 stroke jimmy is until
the engine was cranking at a good speed the blower did not have enough
effect to boost the compression pressures high enough on a very cold
engine to light the fuel. IIRC the ether was injected below the blower
on the Jimmy, directly into the manifold at the intake port. On
normally aspirated 4 stroke compression ignition engines ether is
generally injected into the intake at the air filter.
This is not adviseable, apparently, on turboed 4 strokes, particularly
with manifold mounted pre-heaters (as compared to port mounted glow
plugs)

Ok, you have some knowledge of engine technology. Thank you for
providing the Group with this information.

Me
 
Ok, you have some knowledge of engine technology. Thank you for
providing the Group with this information.

Me
I've only been a mechanic since 1969, and taught both high school and
trade level automotive technology for several years.
Did my apprenticeship in a general garage that was also a farm
equipment dealership, and worked for a time for an industrial
equipment shop (case/allis and several other brands)along with 10
years as service manager at a Toyota dealership.
Accumulated a TITTLE bit of knowlege about automobiles and other
motorized and mechanical contraptions.
 
S

Steve Spence

Jan 1, 1970
0
Me said:
No, ether is the only way, YOU have figured out, to start that
2-71 Jimmy engine on your genset. There are giant differences
between your 2 cycle Jimmy and any 4 cycle diesel, in starting
proceedures. Also your 2-71 isn't naturally asperated, as it has
a Geartrain Driven Blower, which makes it different, in starting in cold
Wx, from any naturally asperated diesel engine. If you have an
Exhaust driven Turbocharger, you would be looking at another
basic cold Wx starting proceedure, altogether. These things are
just not as generic as some folks think......


Me

I said truck, not generator. All the tractors around here are started
with ether as well. -40 is pretty cold.
 
M

Me

Jan 1, 1970
0
I've only been a mechanic since 1969, and taught both high school and
trade level automotive technology for several years.
Did my apprenticeship in a general garage that was also a farm
equipment dealership, and worked for a time for an industrial
equipment shop (case/allis and several other brands)along with 10
years as service manager at a Toyota dealership.
Accumulated a TITTLE bit of knowlege about automobiles and other
motorized and mechanical contraptions.

and all the above makes you an expert on "Ether use in Extreme Low Temp
Starting of Diesel Engines", why? When was the last time you lived in
-40F, and had to start a diesel engine? There are a few in this group
who deal with this on a daily basis, and have for more years than you
have been out of square pants.....


Me
 
and all the above makes you an expert on "Ether use in Extreme Low Temp
Starting of Diesel Engines", why? When was the last time you lived in
-40F, and had to start a diesel engine? There are a few in this group
who deal with this on a daily basis, and have for more years than you
have been out of square pants.....


Me

Not -40 every day, but I HAVE used ether to start MANY deisel engines
at below zero.I grew up and worked in the "snow belt" of southwestern
Ontario, and a LOT of the industrial equipment I worked on was used
extensively for snow removal through the winter months. What are you
taking issue with? I've stated that ether IS used, effectively and
safely, to start deisels in extreme cold.There are situations where
simply blowing it in the intake is not adviseable. I have also stated
it is not adviseable for starting gasoline engines - although if
CAREFULLY used it can aid in starting a cold gasoline engine.
 
S

Steve Stone

Jan 1, 1970
0
I'm in New York. I have a small inexpensive 5kw 10hp pull start B&S powered
Coleman
Using 5w-30 Mobil 1 in the crankcase helps in the cold weather. Not a total
solution but better than dino oil.
 
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