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Standard Cell Vs FPGA designs

Based on trends in mask and design costs for standard cells, vs. FGPA
capabilities, do
you believe the number of new designs per year executed in standard
cells will increase
or decrease in the future as compared with a baseline of 2007 ?

I think it will increase, what do you think ?
 
D

David L. Jones

Jan 1, 1970
0
Based on trends in mask and design costs for standard cells, vs. FGPA
capabilities, do
you believe the number of new designs per year executed in standard
cells will increase
or decrease in the future as compared with a baseline of 2007 ?

Now that sounds kinda like some sort of wacko exam question...
I think it will increase, what do you think ?

I think you should have a re-think.

Dave.
 
Based on trends in mask and design costs for standard cells, vs. FGPA
capabilities, do
you believe the number of new designs per year executed in standard
cells will increase
or decrease in the future as compared with a baseline of 2007 ?

I think it will increase, what do you think ?

I think you're nuts, but you can ignore history at your peril.
 
I think you're nuts, but you can ignore history at your peril.

Dave..You are smart..It was an exam question. But I am not convinced
by the answer professor gave me...that FPGAs will takeover standard
cell designs thereby reducing the number of standard cell designs. I
think as the performance and power of FPGAs will be bad compared to SC
designs, SC designs are always going to be winners
and I dont think FPGAs will take over.
 
Dave..You are smart..It was an exam question. But I am not convinced
by the answer professor gave me...that FPGAs will takeover standard
cell designs thereby reducing the number of standard cell designs. I
think as the performance and power of FPGAs will be bad compared to SC
designs, SC designs are always going to be winners
and I dont think FPGAs will take over.

You didn't answer Dave.

FPGAs won't "take over" standard cell designs any more than digital
esigns will "take over" analog designs or microcontrollers will "take
over" logic designs. Each has its purpose and the lines will shift.

Standard cells will certainly continue to lose designs to FPGAs as
costs rise. There will continue to be a niche for standard cell, as
well as custom logic, for those applications that can afford the costs
(where "afford" == require).
 
R

Richard Henry

Jan 1, 1970
0
Dave..You are smart..It was an exam question. But I am not convinced
by the answer professor gave me...that FPGAs will takeover standard
cell designs thereby reducing the number of standard cell designs. I
think as the performance and power of FPGAs will be bad compared to SC
designs, SC designs are always going to be winners
and I dont think FPGAs will take over.

Your professor, wsa right, but he had the wrong reason.

In electronics design, there are critical 2 speed measurements.
1. How fast will your circuit operate?
2. When will you be finished with the design?

FPGA circuits are easier to design, require less training, and (at
least in my experience) require less expensive tools. Your typical MB-
bearing middle manager realizes that he is more likely to get a bonus
for finishing his project ahead of schedule and within budget than for
producing a high-quality product. Thus the enthusiasm for FPGAs.
 
Based on trends in mask and design costs for standard cells, vs. FGPA
capabilities, do
you believe the number of new designs per year executed in standard
cells will increase
or decrease in the future as compared with a baseline of 2007 ?

I think it will increase, what do you think ?

Neither.

The ever-increasing costs of mask sets for any kind of custom chip and
the ever-increasing cost of getting decent cost and performance out of
FPGAs will lead to more hybrid pattern-able custom chips: SoCs with
hard-coded processor / DSP / memory / standard peripheral cores but
with final metal mask(s)- or fuse- or flash- programmable logic cell
and/or analog array areas for specific applications. Vendors that
cover as much application / volume space as possible with the least
investment and best service (models, tool chains, prototype
turnaround, application support, etc.) will be the big winners (as in
every other generational transition of semi-custom silicon product).
Think Microchip (or higher-order) with FPGA and/or programmable analog
blocks.
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
Based on trends in mask and design costs for standard cells, vs. FGPA
capabilities, do
you believe the number of new designs per year executed in standard
cells will increase
or decrease in the future as compared with a baseline of 2007 ?

I think it will increase, what do you think ?

Frankly, I think this sounds suspiciously like a homework question.

Good Luck!
Rich
 
You didn't answer Dave.

FPGAs won't "take over"standard celldesigns any more than digital
esigns will "take over" analog designs or microcontrollers will "take
over" logic designs.  Each has its purpose and the lines will shift.

Standard cells will certainly continue to lose designs to FPGAs as
costs rise.  There will continue to be a niche forstandard cell, as
well as custom logic, for those applications that can afford the costs
(where "afford" == require).

Keith,
I agree that Standard Cells will continue to lose designs to FPGA as
FPGA costs keeps coming down and can hold bigger designs in them.
But, won't the performance/power requirements becomes more and more
stringent when we move into future ? Excuse me for using the term
"take over", displace would be more appropriate.

Jean
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
Dave..You are smart..It was an exam question. But I am not convinced
by the answer professor gave me...that FPGAs will takeover standard
cell designs thereby reducing the number of standard cell designs. I
think as the performance and power of FPGAs will be bad compared to SC
designs, SC designs are always going to be winners
and I dont think FPGAs will take over.

What's the difference between an "FPGA" and a "standard cell", other than
my (more than likely inaccurate) assumption that an FPGA is simply a
collection of interconnectible standard cells?

I have no doubt someone here will correct me if I'm inaccurate,
misinformed, or am making a WAG and missing the point entirely. ;-)

Cheers!
Rich
 
Keith,
I agree that Standard Cells will continue to lose designs to FPGA as
FPGA costs keeps coming down and can hold bigger designs in them.
But, won't the performance/power requirements becomes more and more
stringent when we move into future ? Excuse me for using the term
"take over", displace would be more appropriate.

FPGA costs coming down isn't nearly as important as their performance
going up and cost of standard cell designs. Yes, there will always be
niches for standard cells, though increasingly small. The number of
these applications will be bounded by the astronomical costs
involved. Because the costs can be spread around more ASSPs will be
far more prevalent, further eroding the ASIC market.

BTW, not all FPGAs are Xilinx' power hogs. ;-)
 
What kind of professor puts, "Do you believe..." questions on an engineering
exam anyway? He might as well have asked you if you believe in
anthropomorphic global warming or the tooth fairy.

Anthropogenic, not anthropomorphic.
 
D

David L. Jones

Jan 1, 1970
0
Rich Grise said:
What's the difference between an "FPGA" and a "standard cell", other than
my (more than likely inaccurate) assumption that an FPGA is simply a
collection of interconnectible standard cells?

Well, you aren't exactly wrong, but the point of FPGA's over standard cells
is that FPGA's are reconfigurable off-the-shelf devices and require no NRE.
Standard cell is basically a full ASIC with the associated NRE.

Dave.
 
D

David L. Jones

Jan 1, 1970
0
--
I think you're nuts, but you can ignore history at your peril.
Dave..You are smart..It was an exam question. But I am not convinced
by the answer professor gave me...that FPGAs will takeover standard
cell designs thereby reducing the number of standard cell designs. I
think as the performance and power of FPGAs will be bad compared to SC
designs, SC designs are always going to be winners
and I dont think FPGAs will take over.

It's very hard to quantify this stuff. Do you base the figures on actual
shipped chip quantity?, number of design implemented? etc.
Standard cell ASIC's require a massive NRE investment, and this effectively
puts a cap on the number of customers who can afford to design ASIC's.
If you base the argument on number of people implementing new designs, then
FPGA's will win hands down, as even Joe Blog Hobbyist can implement FPGA's.
If you look at the EDA market, then ASIC customers are getting fewer and
fewer (like down to a number you can start to count on your hands), but FPGA
tool use has been exploding in numbers for a long time. So in that respect
your professor is right.

But there will always be a big niche for custom ASIC's, the market won't
vanish.

Dave.
 
K

krw

Jan 1, 1970
0
What's the difference between an "FPGA" and a "standard cell", other than
my (more than likely inaccurate) assumption that an FPGA is simply a
collection of interconnectible standard cells?

There is no 'FP' in an ASIC and FPGAs aren't 'AS'.
 
K

krw

Jan 1, 1970
0
Cost-conscious digital can't help but go to some form of
array-based...

Sometimes cost isn't the driving issue. Sometimes the line gets drawn
in different places.
And analog/mixed-signal ASIC's will continue... which is why I
continue to get requests.

There is real money to be made in niches. One could argue that that
*is* where the money is. Competition, and all.
 
K

krw

Jan 1, 1970
0
Neither.

The ever-increasing costs of mask sets for any kind of custom chip and
the ever-increasing cost of getting decent cost and performance out of
FPGAs will lead to more hybrid pattern-able custom chips: SoCs with
hard-coded processor / DSP / memory / standard peripheral cores but
with final metal mask(s)- or fuse- or flash- programmable logic cell
and/or analog array areas for specific applications.

You're already seeing that, though DSPs not so much. Everyone has
soft core and hard core processors of various stripes depending on
needs. RAM/ROM in single and dual ports have been everywhere for a
decade. User flash is available on several models. The FPGA fabric
just begs to do the DSP type work so I don't see too much there.
Peripherals, except for ubiquitous things like USB, won't find their
way into hard macros either. Hardware accelerators, such as DDR, QDR,
and other SerDes interfaces already have.
Vendors that
cover as much application / volume space as possible with the least
investment and best service (models, tool chains, prototype
turnaround, application support, etc.) will be the big winners (as in
every other generational transition of semi-custom silicon product).
Think Microchip (or higher-order) with FPGA and/or programmable analog
blocks.

They might be the "winners" but there will be many. The real money is
in the niches. 'X', 'A', and 'a' have a *pile* of money tied up in
the things you cite.
 
K

krw

Jan 1, 1970
0
Frankly, I think this sounds suspiciously like a homework question.

If it is, there is nothing to be learned at that school.
 
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