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Stainless Steel Negative Resistor

Discussion in 'Electronic Design' started by [email protected], Apr 16, 2008.

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  1. Guest

    "Just like Meyer says in his patents."

    Pay attention:
    Early negative resistance + back EMF test

    Stainless Steel Negative Resistor

    Negative resistor test
     
  2. Guest

    I would encourage everyone to read these links, because they are truly
    humorous to even a second year EE or physics student, and so
    incredibly stupid that they don't require any sort of a responsible
    comment.

    JW has now reached a new all time low, since he cites nonsense posted
    on Youtube for the authoritative backup for his absurd beliefs.

    Still, what may make an interesting discussion would be for newsgroup
    readers to cite the multiple flaws present in each to these 3
    demonstrations and erroneous conclusions (any one of which would
    result in an EE student flunking his lab course -- all three combined
    might result in an EE student suggested to change his major to
    accounting.) :)

    I'll even make the first criticism: To he extent of my knowledge,
    what is termed negative resistance is only observed at a semiconductor
    junction, and never with a homogenous such stainless steel (Lord
    willing that it were, but it isn't). IIRC, the definition of negative
    resistance requires di/dv to be a negative number, and is observed in
    tunnel diodes and I believe a few other related semiconductor devices.
    Generally specaking, it requires something like a Tektronix Curve
    Tracer to observe, not simple transformers and basement kludges to
    observe.

    I'll leave it to college students to comment about the experments and
    claims made in the other two videos, only nothing that that a battery
    composed of different composition terminals immersed in an
    electrolytic solution produces only a simple electrical potential
    difference whose magnitude is easily computed, and not negative
    resistance. Volta discovered this centuries ago. Dhuh!

    JW, you're scored once again high on the crackpot scale.

    Harry C.
     
  3. Guest

    To be fair, he is describing a junction with carbon, IIRC.

    But look here
    http://home.earthlink.net/~lenyr/ntype-nr.htm
    Well that's negative differential resistance, but I think when people
    say negative resistance they mean that.
    You can put a tunnel diode in a circuit so it oscillates. You can then
    put in a 1N914 and observe that in fact, the circuit does not
    oscillate. You can test this with an FM radio.
    Yeah, that's not correct, a battery has in fact a finite series
    positive resistance inside it.
    Eh, as far as Youtube videos go though, it's not too bad.
     
  4. You can also construct an active device (using an op-amp) that acts
    like a negative resistor.
    The value of the negative resistance of such a device can be
    determined by measuring voltage & current then dividing.

    Paul Cardinale
     
  5. Guest

    Bill, I can't disagree. When I looked at the Youtube links, I had
    roughly the same reaction.

    Bill, I will share a little story with you that few know about. It
    took place when I was a coop student working at RCA labs back around
    1965. My job was to function as a lab technician and to fabrricate
    tunnel diodes from slabs of degerately dosed germanium, create the
    junctions using a crude hyrdogen filled electrically heated tube oven
    by coating them with molten indium for a precise time interval, then
    later cuutting them into little chips. The methods that we employed
    were crude by today's standards, but this is how the first negative-
    resistance devices were made.

    My job included testing each chip on a curve tracer to determine the
    amount of negative resistance (di/dv) that was demonstrated, allowing
    us to refine the process. Often during testing the chips would break
    into oscillation, which screwed up my measurements and was quite
    annoying. (During testing, with all the leads attached, the
    oscilliation frequency was around 3-Ghz.)

    The joke was, our neighboring lab at Sarnoff had the job of retesting
    the chips, and processing them for production at RCA semiconductory
    plant in Lancaster, NJ. The folks in that lab observed a dim red glow
    from some of the chips, and reached the mistaken conclusion that they
    were oscillating at optical wavelengths in the nm wavelength range. A
    great deal of premature festivity and massive beer consumption
    resulted that night.

    During the following sobering days, it was realized that rather than
    powering the tunnel diodes in the correct direction, the polarity had
    been accidently reversed and current was flowing through the chips in
    the wrong direction. What resulted was the evidently the first LED
    (light emitting diode) ever seen, but at the time the management at
    Sarnoff viewed this result an insignificant mistake simply due to a
    technician's error, and went simply ignored. After all, what RCA
    wanted at that time was a multi-Ghz oscillator!

    To the extent of my knowledge, no paper was ever published on the
    observation, nor were any patents sought. The Japanese later did.

    Bill, I suppose my point here is that in experimental work, any
    anomaly from the theoretically expected result, such as light coming
    from a diode needs to be carefully researched and explained based in
    terms of existing scientific knowledge. To do this, one has to know
    what the existing body of science is.

    No offense is intended to anyone by this post.

    Harry C.

    p.s., To lay readers (only meaning non-EE or non-physicists) the
    definition of negative resistance is that di/dv is negative at some
    some point in the I/V curve. This simply means that as voltage in
    incrementally increased, current through the devices incrementally
    diminishes. Certain elements such as carbon display non-linear
    resistance characteristic, but none display negative resistance. Their
    di/dv is always positive. Metals display current linear resistance
    properties, but their resistance is a generally a function of their
    operating temperature (e.g., The tungsten filament in an incandescent
    light bulb).

    Harry C.
     
  6. Guest

    Good point Paul, and I've in the past constructed "constant current
    loads" that were built just that way. No matter what voltage you
    applied to them withing certain limits, they would draw the same
    current. Easy to build one that would pass less current as the voltage
    is increased. I've read some of your posts, and I have no doubt that
    you could design one of these devices in less than the 1-hour it would
    take me to work out the computations and select components what would
    work on the first try (most of that time would be spent in consulting
    the semiconductor references to determine appropriate component
    selection.)

    Still, Paul, that is not what the term negative resistance means to
    the scientific community, which is di/dv over a portion of its current
    range for a simple device, such as a individual like a bar of metal.

    Actually, you have my evil twin thinking, :-( He is whispering in my
    ear: "After all those years in college accumulating knowledge, how
    difficult would it to scam money out of cluless guys like JW and
    others who lack the intelligence to fix their TV sets or computers.
    They will buy into anything, and send their money, to anyone who
    claims to produce miraculus results. You are stupid not to exploit
    this stupidity just like clergymen and politicians do. You will alway
    be a poor guy unless you take advantage of this situation.)

    I suppose that I must be like the last Boy Scout, becase my good twin
    keeps whispering in my ear that I have an obligation to those who
    helped me to obtain my education and whose share knowledge has helped
    me provide for myself and my family for our entire lives, and pass
    along the knowledge that was once taught to me.

    Paul, please do not make trivial posts, You damn well know what the
    message that I posted meant, or at least should have.

    Harry C.
     
  7. Guest

    Colin, considering that the Russian inventers also claim to have
    produced both telephones and radio communications long prior to Bell
    or Marconi a claim that they also invented the LED is not particularly
    a a surprise.

    Being entirely honest, my first introduction to semiconductor
    technology was back in the middle 1950s, when I purchase a copy of
    Bill Shockleys "Electrons and Holes in Semiconductors" published in
    1950. While that classic text contains many pages of references to
    other classic papers (mostly dealing with point contact diodes then
    used as microwave mixers such as the now famious 1N21), nothing in its
    entire 558 pages even mentions light emission ever being observed from
    semiconductor junctions. Same thing with the MIT Radiation Laboratory
    volume on point contact diodes. So, this takes us back to the early
    1940s.

    When you reach back to the 1920, the primary application of natural
    semiconductors was largely limited to early rectifiers used for the
    detection of radio signals, and there were no atrifically made
    semiconductors (short of the copper oxide rectifiers. Other than the
    "Coherer", all of these semiconductor devices were simply point
    contact devices where a "hair whisker" wire, usually copper or bronze
    was emplyed to probe the surface of a galena or other natural crystal,
    even a piece of coal would suffice in a pinch. In the famious "GI
    Radio", the edge of a razor blade lightly touching the surface of a
    piece of hard coal would do the job (or so I was told).

    Obviously in the 1920s if you pump sufficent current through a
    semiconductor, light would be emitted (of course if that happened your
    would have to mail order a new detector crystal since the old one had
    been overheated and rendered kerput! At that point us young kids
    would have to come up with another 50-cents in cost plus shipping to
    purchased a replacement. Then too, 50-cents for 12-year old kids was
    a lot of money then, so we were extremely careful. I would love to
    read the patent you cite, not to suggest that it doesn't exist but to
    quantify its content and scientific merits. (Keep in mind that may
    silly patents have been issued for worthless concepts having absoutely
    no practical application.)

    Colin, the LED is a rather advanced concept device that even while I
    am a physicist, I can't completely explain its operation. (My chosen
    speciality is in electromagnetic fields and classical physics. Newton,
    Maxweell, etc.) So, I would leave explanation of how a LED operates to
    those actively working in that field of physics. (I have only an arm
    waving believe that it is somehow related to to charges falling though
    a bandgap in a semiconductory junction and in doing so relating that
    energy as emitted radiation at a specific wavelength that corresponds
    to (Q=hv) their energy level change. Thus, depending on the bandgap,
    some will emit red light, while others blue and green. I have no idea
    how white LEDs function, but perhaps someone better versed than myself
    in semiconductory theory will correct my misconceptions, and explain
    precisely how this works.

    At least I hope they will, since this is how we all learn more by
    using the Internet.

    Harry C.

    p.s., Colin, you posts are doing more good than you can imagine.
     
  8. Guest

    Eric, unlike you, I believe that Stanley Meyer did not have a mental
    illness beyond that of being a sociopath (then too, perhaps this is a
    mental illness.). Meyer died just as he lived, being a confidence
    artist. I believe that Meyer died not realizing the seriousness of his
    medical condition, thus causing him to perpetuate his scam right up to
    the very end.

    If anyone had a mental illness, it was his supporters and victims,
    some of which continue to defend his nonsensical claims despite rather
    obvous evidence to the contrary. I tend to believe that Stan managed
    to somehow form his little cult of belivers, and his was no different
    than any other cult. If so, Stan will be neither the first nor the
    last to accomplish this.

    Harry C.

    p.s., I'm a 32nd Degree Master Mason, although as every real Mason
    knows, there is nothing higher than the 3rd Degree in Masonry. If this
    puzzles you ask a friend that is a Mason to explain it.
     
  9. Guest

    Bill, it is refreshing to find someone who actually knows something
    about physics here in sci.physics.

    You posted:

    "I don't know of any semiconductors available in 1927 that would have
    enough bandgap (>1.7V) to emit visible light. IIRC, you were using
    Ga
    with In doping. The N saturated substrate doping might have made a
    GaInN
    or GaInAs junction, which could explain your observation."

    Just some details for whatever value that they might add to the
    thread....

    Our work began using pulled crystals of n-doped germanium (presumably
    the doping agent employed was arsenic). [The assingment required to
    have monthly blood tests conducted for arsenic, even though we never
    directly handled arsenic reagents.] The junctions were formed by
    flowing molten mixes of indium and gallium over a thin slice taken
    from the mother crystal, conducted in a hydrogen atmosphere.

    It never crossed my mind at that time that this could result in a
    GalnAs junction, particularly since we were working with degenerately
    doped germanium crystals. [For the benefit of non-physicists, the
    definition of "degerate doping" refers to the fact that the doping
    agent in the semiconductor medium is (in this case arsenic) is much
    greater than that found in conventional transistor components. In
    simple terms, it means that you have dumped too much salt or sugar
    into the cookie mix,]

    Just to set the stage, Bill in 1959 it was well known how to
    manufacture a transistor, but the then ongoing research focused on the
    "what if" things. One of these avenues of research was since we know
    pretty well how intrinsic semiconductors perform when slightly doped,
    what would happen if we degenerately dope them. The tunnel diode was
    an early result from this avenue of research, and since I moved on to
    other areas since, I'm not sure what other results followed, although
    I strongly suspect that the LED was one.

    Bill, it is interesting how careers can change over the years. I
    originally started working in particle accelerator design, not
    semiconductors. Later moved to the design of earth satellites, then
    railway signaling, and finally radar systems and retirement. Life
    offers incredible experiences if you give it a chance and live long
    and healthy enough. In my case, and I don't suggest this for
    everyone, two shots of Jim Beam and several beers each night helps,
    along with having a good wife for 50 years and 3 now adult kids.

    On a far more serious note, I would seriously urge every young person
    that reads this to attend college and complete a degree. That degree
    assures potental employers that you have at least studied the material
    present to you, passed exams on the same, and helps to show that you
    now sit on the shoulders of those who went before you, and hopefully
    see farther.

    Harry C.
     
  10. Fred Kasner

    Fred Kasner Guest

    And perhaps they can then STAND on the shoulders of the giants who
    preceded them and see even farther then if they just sat on their
    shoulders. The great advances in basic physics and chemistry may come
    only fitfully and only occasionally but the technology exploiting that
    which we know can and should come in a steady stream. Ah, if I could
    only live to be twoo hundred to see so much more.
    FK
     
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