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Spanish take the lead

Discussion in 'Home Power and Microgeneration' started by News, Nov 8, 2004.

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  1. News

    News Guest

    Spanish newspaper El Pais, says all newly built and refurbished houses in
    Spain will need to be fitted with PV cells.

    This should increase production and drop the prices world wide.
     
  2. Gymmy Bob

    Gymmy Bob Guest

    Eventually. The short term effect will send them through the roof (pun
    intended)
     
  3. N9WOS

    N9WOS Guest

    Since when has a government mandate for a use of a product ever made that
    product cheaper?

    The government mandating the use of the product will just drive the price up
    because it is creating an artificial market for it.

    Like the fact that California PV subsides are artificially inflating the
    price
    Of PV systems in the US.

    There is a specific point where supply and demand cross.
    If a producer makes a specific number of panels,
    he can only charge so much for them if he wants to sell all of them.
    The more he produces, the less he can charge for them, if he wants to sell
    all of them.

    By putting that subside on PV, they artificially move that supply/demand
    crossing point up.
    The producers can charge more for what they are currently producing, and
    still sell all of it.

    If they would drop the subsides, it would weed out the less competitive
    technologies and would
    Make the companies streamline to stay competitive.
    Production would ramp greatly to reduce per unit cost, so they could target
    the entire US,
    Instead of California, and a few other specific places that have subsides.

    I think they should let the market economy handle it.
    When PV becomes competitive compared to other forms of energy,
    it will gain market share on it's own, and everyone will be better off..
     
  4. N9WOS

    N9WOS Guest

    Since when has a government mandate for a use of a product ever made that
    product cheaper?

    The government mandating the use of the product will just drive the price up
    because it is creating an artificial market for it.

    Like the fact that California PV subsidies are artificially inflating
    the price of PV systems in the US.

    There is a specific point where supply and demand cross.
    If a producer makes a specific number of panels,
    he can only charge so much for them if he wants to sell all of them.
    The more he produces, the less he can charge for them, if he wants to sell
    all of them.

    By putting that subsidy on PV, they artificially move
    that supply/demand crossing point up.
    The producers can charge more for what they are
    currently producing, and still sell all of it.

    If they would drop the subsidies, it would weed out the less competitive
    technologies and would make the companies streamline to stay competitive.
    Production would ramp greatly to reduce per unit cost,
    so they could target the entire US, instead of California,
    and a few other specific places that have subsidies

    I think they should let the market economy handle it.
    When PV becomes competitive compared to other forms of energy,
    it will gain market share on it's own, and everyone will be better off..
     
  5. Could you please provide the link for this
     
  6. News

    News Guest

    Try a Google on Bloomberg.
     
  7. News

    News Guest

    Governments mandate all building materials, so what is different about PV
    cells?
     
  8. News

    News Guest

    OK they will quadruple, but at least less crap will be sent into the
    environment. Then there are the silly lead acid batteries they use. They
    pollute like mad in the production and disposal. Maybe the PV cells could
    rive a compressor that charges an air tank that will be sued on demand to
    supply electricity. The store medium will be non-polluting air.
     
  9. So once again you can't provide any evidence that what you say is true.
     
  10. That is absolutely not true. That makes you three for three.

    (hint: PV's are not a building material)
     
  11. How big of a compressor and storage tank would one need to power a
    typical house for one day? How big does this get when you need to store
    say 4 or 5 days because the sun isn't always shining enough to let the
    PV's work at their best efficiency/power output?

    What are the environmental effects of increased steel production to
    build these "environmental" devices? How much energy/steel/coal etc does
    it take to build just one of these compressors and storage tanks.

    What do you do with the heat produced from compressing the air? Where do
    you put this equipment? What is the cost of sound insulation (and tank
    safety)?

    What will all of this cost (compared to PV's and batteries)?
     
  12. News

    News Guest

    In Spain they soon will be.
     
  13. News

    News Guest

    I'm sure far less than lead acid batteries.
     
  14. N9WOS

    N9WOS Guest

    I'm sure far less than lead acid batteries.

    Look in the header information.
    "news.uni-berlin.de"
    He is from Berlin

    You got to take into account what he hears from the news media from day to
    day.
    Anything that the united states does, has to be wrong.
    And the US can't do anything better than them....
    If lead acid batteries are an environmental eye sore to them,
    Just guess how badly they think we are polluting the earth with used lead
    acid batteries.

    And take into account that lead acid battery recycling is not a standard
    disposal stream over there.
    They are dumping thousands of tons of lead acid batteries in the landfills.
    Yet the USA has a relatively mature lead acid battery recycling program.
    The large majority of all lead acid battery products is recycled.
    ...................

    With a recycling rate of about 96%, it leads the way in percentage recycled,
    rising well above aluminum Used Beverage Cans (UBCs), which are often a more
    publicized material when it comes to recycling rates.
    ...................

    The figures I have seen from time to time is 95% of each battery is reused.
    Others have clamed 99% with the paper label as being the only thing thrown
    away.

    Just because lead acid batteries are not environmentally friendly over
    there,
    doesn't mean that they are not environmentally friendly in the united
    states.
    In the united states, lead acid batteries have became a very benign
    technology.
     
  15. N9WOS

    N9WOS Guest

    In Spain they soon will be.And when the people in Spain are still paying $5+ per watt,
    While we are paying $1.50 per watt, I will be laughing my a$$ off.

    On another note, US PV production is taking a healthy road.
    About 20% year over year increase.
    We are still exporting the majority of are solar panels.
    That is because the price is not competitive with other forms of energy.
    When the price drops to a competitive level, the market and production
    will explode and then follow along the line of Japan..

    Japan....
    Considering that electricity cost 25 cents per kilowatt,
    PV has finally reached a point where it is competitive.
    So the market and production is exploding.
    But before then, it was lagging the USA and Europe.
    It will continue to grow quickly until the cheaper PV power
    saturates the power market and then the industry will then
    go into a self maintenance mode..

    Europe.
    Electricity cost are about the same as the US. (correct me if I am wrong)
    But PV production is already starting to turn skyward??????
    The reason...
    A few countries in Europe are basically taking the route of PV at any cost.
    They are trying to force PV use.
    That will keep more expensive and less efferent technologies alive.
    The forced usage will cause an increase in electricity rates to offset the
    extra cost.
    Rates that will be locked in for the operational life of the installation.

    I already know what will result from it.

    The PV will in the EU will never reach a point that
    it is an actual competitor to other forms of electricity.
    It's percentage of market share will depend on legislation.
    Cost will be artificially high because of the expensive systems
    they put into full scale production.
    ..
    Then......
    EU legislators will put tariffs on "cheep PV" imports from
    Japan and the US to stop their products from flooding the market
    And putting the local producers out of business.
     
  16. Look in the header information.
    "news.uni-berlin.de"
    He is from Berlin

    You got to take into account what he hears from the news media from day to
    day.
    Anything that the united states does, has to be wrong.
    And the US can't do anything better than them....
    If lead acid batteries are an environmental eye sore to them,
    Just guess how badly they think we are polluting the earth with used lead
    acid batteries.

    And take into account that lead acid battery recycling is not a standard
    disposal stream over there.
    They are dumping thousands of tons of lead acid batteries in the landfills.
    Yet the USA has a relatively mature lead acid battery recycling program.
    The large majority of all lead acid battery products is recycled.
    ..................

    With a recycling rate of about 96%, it leads the way in percentage recycled,
    rising well above aluminum Used Beverage Cans (UBCs), which are often a more
    publicized material when it comes to recycling rates.
    ..................

    The figures I have seen from time to time is 95% of each battery is reused.
    Others have clamed 99% with the paper label as being the only thing thrown
    away.

    Just because lead acid batteries are not environmentally friendly over
    there,
    doesn't mean that they are not environmentally friendly in the united
    states.
    In the united states, lead acid batteries have became a very benign
    technology.
    [/QUOTE]

    Doesn't matter where "news" is from, he/she is suffering from a lack of
    proper education...that would be tolerable as there is so much of that
    going on, but his/her refusal to listen to explainations or provide
    proof just makes him/her amusing entertainment...and gives me a chance
    to improve my typing skills.
     
  17. What, no pithy retort to this. (hint: when trying to ignore someones
    point, it's best to just clip it)
    Is that one of your theories or are you capable of backing that
    statement with some research and cites for us to peruse.
     
  18. I see you are afraid to respond to this. Good, you are finally getting
    some sense.
    I doubt that there is anywhere on earth where PV will ever be a building
    material.

    But if you'd like to present evidence to the contrary, we await this
    anxiously
     
  19. Windsun

    Windsun Guest

    And exactly what information do you have to back that statement up?
     
  20. Windsun

    Windsun Guest

    No they do NOT. You are obviously totally clueless about construction.
     
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