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Solar hydrogen

Discussion in 'Home Power and Microgeneration' started by AssTelescope, Jan 18, 2005.

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  1. Jim Logajan

    Jim Logajan Guest

    Well... passing solar-heated steam over red hot iron sponge or other metals
    (also solar heated) will create hydrogen while consuming the iron or metal.
    No carbon is involved, and the process is technically reversible, though
    the efficiency probably leaves something to be desired.
    Carbon sequestration (e.g. http://cdiac2.esd.ornl.gov/) has also been
    proposed, but sounds to me like like it will require a lot of energy.

    By the way, I happen to think hydrogen is a poor choice for use for energy
    storage for use in vehicles because of its poor energy density.
     
  2. I agree. Biofuels should be the choice. Pricing is the limiting factor.
    E.g. biomethanol is four times as expensive as methanol from natural
    gas. We need legislation and government control. For example EU has a
    biofuel mandate that forces fuels to contain certain amount of renewables.

    There are also pitfalls with biofuels. Ethanol's fossil balance may be
    negative etc. Fischer-Tropsch biodiesel and cellulosic ethanol have good
    energy balance and they do not compete directly with food production.

    Kimmo
     
  3. Jim Logajan

    Jim Logajan Guest

    I referenced solar heating twice. I've repeated the paragraph so you can
    read it again.

    Solar concentrators can melt iron. They can be used in a number of
    thermochemical processes. Here's an article that discusses the technical
    aspects of several possibilities:

    http://www.pre.ethz.ch/documents/Solar_Thermochemical_Process_Technology.pdf

    Excerpts from its conclusion:

    "If the goal were to produce H2, the economic competition should properly
    be between sustainable concepts for producing it. If solar energy is to be
    used to reduce CO2 emissions, the solar process should be more cost
    effective than all other options...

    Solar-made electricity is a key form of clean energy based on an unlimited
    resource, but it cannot be stored or transmitted over long distances more
    conveniently than electricity produced from any other energy sources.
    Solar-made chemical fuels overcome these limitations to a large extent.
    They are solar energy carriers that can be used for heat and electricity
    generation to match the customer's energy demands. Solar thermochemical
    processes are thermodynamically favorable paths for producing solar fuels
    because of the potential for converting unlimited solar energy into
    chemical energy efficiently. Thus, solar thermochemical process
    technology is a promising long-term prospect for delivering clean,
    efficient, sustainable energy services."
     
  4. Biomethane is not biomethanol. Biomethane can be produced in one farm,
    but methanol plants must be giant. Biomethane can be used exactly as
    compressed natural gas in cars. There are couple of millions such cars
    in the world, mostly hybrid gas/gasoline. Pricing is not the only thing.
    It is better to use the methane as energy rather than let it go to the
    atmosphere.
     
  5. There is absolutely no point in reading beyond the first two words of
    your post.

    http://www.tinaja.com/glib/bashpseu.pdf


    --
    Many thanks,

    Don Lancaster
    Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
    voice: (928)428-4073 email:

    Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com
     
  6. Jim Logajan

    Jim Logajan Guest

    Your bote calculations would be interesting to see if you're willing to
    present them.

    While I don't have figures for thermochemical systems, there is at least
    one set of 9 commercial non-PV solar plants that have been built and real-
    world financial data accumulated over 98-plant years of service (with
    engineering refinements applied to each new plant):

    Solar Electric Generation Station IX (SEGS IX) in the California Mojave
    Desert, the last of 9 parabolic trough hybrid generating plants built, was
    reportedly able to produce electricity for a fully burdened cost of about
    US$0.08/kWh:

    http://www.eere.energy.gov/troughnet/pdfs/parabolic_trough.pdf

    Here's some additional reading on solar troughs (thanks to Nick Pine for an
    old post of his that got me to look into this promising class of solar
    generating plants):

    http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy03osti/33208.pdf
    http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy03osti/34186.pdf
    http://www.volker-quaschning.de/downloads/VGB2001.pdf
    http://www.powerfromthesun.net/chapter11/Chapter11.htm
     
  7. Steve Spence

    Steve Spence Guest

  8. Steve Spence

    Steve Spence Guest

  9. Not one net watthour of silicon pv solar electricity has EVER been produced.

    See http://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf for a detailed analysis.

    --
    Many thanks,

    Don Lancaster
    Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
    voice: (928)428-4073 email:

    Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com
     
  10. Obviously the claim of eight cents per kilowatt hour was clearly blowing
    smoke.

    Otherwise every power company would now own at least a dozen of them.

    http://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf


    --
    Many thanks,

    Don Lancaster
    Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
    voice: (928)428-4073 email:

    Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com
     
  11. Golly Don,
    First you post your stock PV post when it should have been about that
    'air conditioner' you are so fond of. Then you make like $.08/kwh is
    something more special than a small fry consumer rate.

    Why do you bother to post if you won't bother to pay attention? I still
    think you are ok. You have made your mark, you do know your stuff where
    your stuff is applicable. But your inability to be objective can be
    unnerving.
    Ya. Somewhat biased, and very misleading when comparing heat value to
    higher forms of energy. Why do you do this? Is the old knowgen getting
    tiered? Mine is/will to. But that doesn't mean I'll get obstinate.
    Learning is one of the delights of life, don't stop because you've
    become afraid.

    Best, Dan.
     
  12. Jim Logajan

    Jim Logajan Guest

    My post had nothing to do with PV solar electricity. I've tried to
    highlight the explicit exclusion in my original post.

    Why are you responding to a post you either didn't read or didn't
    understand?
     
  13. Jim Logajan

    Jim Logajan Guest

    Looks promising - have you received the patents SHECLabs filed for and if
    so, what are their patent numbers? That would be helpful technical info.
     
  14. I can think of a number of reasons, some of them may actually apply.

    a) He saw "Solar" and posted his pat troll about solar not working.
    b) He saw an opportunity to flog his website, presumably for his own
    profit.
    c) He didn't. He has a script that does it for him.

    Anthony
     
  15. http://www.tinaja.com/glib/advetorl.pdf


    --
    Many thanks,

    Don Lancaster
    Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
    voice: (928)428-4073 email:

    Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com
     
  16. wmbjk

    wmbjk Guest

  17. Steve Spence

    Steve Spence Guest

  18. Steve Spence

    Steve Spence Guest

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