Snake Oil ????

[Ian Sutherland]

Hi folks, at my daughters new home today, installing odds & ends & she
asked me to install an "Electronic scale remover". Being a skeptical
person, I had a look at this device ($500.00) & decided not to instal
it until I knew more about it. Hopeing that someone reading this will
be able to prove me wrong & tell me that it really does work. It is
suposed to remove scale & prevent it's reformation in pipes, valves,
plumbing, hot water systems etc. It consists of a plastic box,
plug-pack & some hook up wire to wind around a water pipe. The wire is
wound around a water pipe for 25 turns, then along the pipe for 100 to
150 mm then another 25 turns in the same direction then back to the
unit. The plug pack is 12 Vdc @ 500 mA. The box has a well made p.c.b.
with a voltage reg. a couple of LM358N's 2 transistors & a 16 pin I.C.
that has had the type No. removed by abrasive paper & some passive
components. Having 2 coils of wire wrapped around the pipe would seem
to me to be using some form of magnetic field, but the instructions
say "Applicable to all pipes, Copper, Ferrous & Polymer pipes" I would
have thought that with the power levels available, there wouldn't be
much of a field inside a ferrous pipe.

Not wishing to disparage any organization, I would be interested to
hear comments from anyone who has used, come accross or knows anything
about these units. I hope that I can be convinced that it does work.

Cheer's, Ian Sutherland.

 

[Bob Parker]

A Google search for -> electronic water descaler <- brought up
nearly 2,000 results. Seems that everyone and his dog's making them,
especially in the UK. Some people say they're great. I find it hard to
believe, but I'm interested in seeing any credible impartial
scientific evidence that they really do work.

Bob

 

[Ian Sutherland]

Sounds like snake-oil to me but this is based on my gut-feeling, not
on any scientific knowledge......

Have a look at :
http://www.scalewatcher.co.uk/index.asp

Is this the same sort of device you are dealing with ?

Hi Gaz, Yes it's similar, the one I have uses 2 coils in series &
there is a web page that say's it sets up a magnetic field in the
pipe. There must be a government department that has tested devices
similar to these & can say they are effective or not.

Cheer's Ian Sutherland.

 

[John_H]

Not wishing to disparage any organization, I would be interested to
hear comments from anyone who has used, come accross or knows anything
about these units. I hope that I can be convinced that it does work.

The only type of scale ever likely to be a problem in pipes would be
calcium carbonate, which is what water softeners get rid of (very
effectively) by ion exchange. Somehow I can't imagine any sort of
field that's likely to convert calcium carbonate to sodium carbonate
in the absence of sodium.

In rural areas which use bore water the snake oil merchants have been
flogging magnetic "filters" for as long as I can remember. I'm yet
to see any evidence that such devices do anything other than lighten
wallets.

Even in houses running on bore water with very high calcium content it
usually takes decades before scale in copper pipes causes problems.
In my experience plastic pipes (polythene or PVC) never have problems.

OTOH hot water systems do have problems with elements scaling and
failing from overheating. The only solutions I know of are to fit
lower wattage elements or to use a water softener. If your daughter
doesn't have problems with her HWS then it's highly unlikely she'll
ever need to bother about scale in pipes.

Better to spend her money on an electronic cockroach scarer. )

 

[Matt]

I find the best snake oil is KY gel

 

[David Sauer]

Hi Gaz, Yes it's similar, the one I have uses 2 coils in series &
there is a web page that say's it sets up a magnetic field in the
pipe. There must be a government department that has tested devices
similar to these & can say they are effective or not.

Fair trading or the ACCC if they're advertising misleading statements.

 

[Phil Allison]

"Ian Sutherland"

Not wishing to disparage any organization, I would be interested to
hear comments from anyone who has used, come accross or knows anything
about these units. I hope that I can be convinced that it does work.

Cheer's, Ian Sutherland.

** If the pipes shed their outer skin after a year - you have your
answer.




.............. Phil

 

[Phil Allison]

Fair trading or the ACCC if they're advertising misleading statements.

** In my experience with both of those phoney government PR
rganizations - doing THAT is a waste of time.

These scam artists have the perfect get out clause - they happily refund
money to those who wake up to the scam.

This means there are NO complaints to the authorities from disgruntled
buyers.

This means NO case can be mounted in court against them.

Same goes for the fake rat and cockroach scarers.

Same goes for nearly any successful scam.




............. Phil

 

[aussieblu]

They do seem a common household appliance in the UK and Elektor
(see page 150 304 Circuits) even had a circuit for one. They are
also known as water softeners. Apparently based on 1930's
discovery and supported by a 1988 article in "New Scientist".
The theory is that an electromagnetic or electric field will
both cause small calcium carbonate crystals in water to form
much larger crystals reducing the risk of the smaller crystals
accumulating in pipes and hot water appliances. Perhaps not
snake oil after all.

 

[aussieblu]

See also http://repair2000.com/magsoft.htm
but not everyone is convinced and Phil and his fellow sceptics
may have a point see http://www.csicop.org/si/9801/powell.html

 

[aussieblu]

THE USA Dept of Energy seems to support them
http://www.plans-kits.com/watersaver/

 

[aussieblu]

"Permanent magnetic water conditioning devices have been
marketed based on a variety of claims regarding their effect on
water hardness and related scale formation. Tests conducted at
Purdue University found "....no significant, beneficial
variation in the physical or chemical water quality parameters
measured." :
http://www.ext.nodak.edu/extpubs/h2oqual/watsys/ae1031w.htm

 

[aussieblu]

After searching through all this material I'd say:
a) It's unlikely to work; but
b) It won't do any harm and if someone believes it works they
will doubtless believe they have softer water and be happier for
it (especially if they paid $500 for the privilege).

 

[David]

Hi Gaz, Yes it's similar, the one I have uses 2 coils in series &
there is a web page that say's it sets up a magnetic field in the
pipe. There must be a government department that has tested devices
similar to these & can say they are effective or not.

Cheer's Ian Sutherland.

According to adversting blurb on the scalewatcher, in introduces a
"complex modulated signal field" into the water. The technical page says
this is between 500Hz and 5Khz. I can't see how this could get through a
conductive pipe to the water at all, and I wouldn't think it would have
much effect on water in a non metalic pipe, especially for the short time
the water in in the proximity of the coil when a tap is on.

Big scam like this electronic bug zapper, electronic car rust preventers
etc.

David

 

[Rob]

I find the best snake oil is KY gel

Apparently Aeroplane Jelly is popular with hosties (probably just for the
jingle).

 

[Ross Herbert]

On 25 May 2004 05:15:46 -0700, [email protected] (Ian
Sutherland) wrote:

|Hi folks, at my daughters new home today, installing odds & ends & she
|asked me to install an "Electronic scale remover". Being a skeptical
|person, I had a look at this device ($500.00) & decided not to instal
|it until I knew more about it. Hopeing that someone reading this will
|be able to prove me wrong & tell me that it really does work. It is
|suposed to remove scale & prevent it's reformation in pipes, valves,
|plumbing, hot water systems etc. It consists of a plastic box,
|plug-pack & some hook up wire to wind around a water pipe. The wire is
|wound around a water pipe for 25 turns, then along the pipe for 100 to
|150 mm then another 25 turns in the same direction then back to the
|unit. The plug pack is 12 Vdc @ 500 mA. The box has a well made p.c.b.
|with a voltage reg. a couple of LM358N's 2 transistors & a 16 pin I.C.
|that has had the type No. removed by abrasive paper & some passive
|components. Having 2 coils of wire wrapped around the pipe would seem
|to me to be using some form of magnetic field, but the instructions
|say "Applicable to all pipes, Copper, Ferrous & Polymer pipes" I would
|have thought that with the power levels available, there wouldn't be
|much of a field inside a ferrous pipe.
|
|Not wishing to disparage any organization, I would be interested to
|hear comments from anyone who has used, come accross or knows anything
|about these units. I hope that I can be convinced that it does work.
|
| Cheer's, Ian Sutherland.


See
http://www.chem1.com/CQ/
http://www.aces.edu/waterquality/resources/WATER SCAMS3-HD.pdf

Ross H