Q
- Jan 1, 1970
- 0
Hi,
I am experiencing a problem with some DC/DC non-isolated buck
converters using LM2743, on a otherwise digital board (16 layer) and am
grateful for any help offered.
I have designed a number of voltage mode DC/DC converters on a board.
They are split into - a group of 3 (G3) that are close to one another
and another group of 5 (G5) which are close to one another. They all
run off a 12V power rail. All regulators are running at 350 KHz
switching frequency approximately (the resistor that sets this does not
gaurentee that the frequency will be 'exactly' set).
The problem is - one of the regulators in G3 and one of the regulators
on G5 have a certain amount of low frequency noise (50mV max -
periodic, 4 KHz freq , but not sinusoidal, rather irregular shaped)
that in turn has the normal switching noise (15mV) of the buck topology
riding on it - as measured with a BNC cable probe, on the output caps -
a 'null test' was performed too and I am quite confident that the noise
is real.
During all tests the noisy G3 rail is isolated from everything else on
the board. It had a second noise filter inductor due to an ultra low
noise requirement, which I removed for the testing. Not looked at the
noisy G5 rail as of yet. The noisy G3 rail is 1.2V and the one
immediately next to it is 1.8V. The noisy G5 rail is 5V.
- When the other regulators in G3 are turned off, the low freq noise on
the noisy regulator in G3 is reduced and changes shape but does not go
away altogether.
- When all other regulators on board are switched off the LF noise on
the noisy regulator in G3 goes away altogether.
- If I change the freq of the noisy G3 regulator to 300 kHz or 400 KHz
while keeping switch freq on the other regulators 350 KHz as before, LF
noise on the noisy G3 regulator goes away
- If I change the freq of all regs to 300KHz the noise reappears on the
noisy G3 regulator.
- I tried lifting the SGND (connected by a thin net to PGND as of
now)pin of the chip and connecting it to another ground point - this
doesn't help. I tried air wiring the Vfb net too. This doesnt make the
LF noise go away.
- I checked that the Vcc power (5V) to the switching controller is
clean. This is a differnt Vcc from the noisy 5V regulator mentioned
earlier.
- Basic rules such as short fat planes for the noisy power portion,
AGND isolated from DGND etc. are followed. I am not an expert though
and may have violated some not-so-basic rule of layout.
- If I look at the switching node on a scope I see that the duty cycle
has a jitter of about 50 ns though the frequency is very constant. When
all regulators (except the noisy G3 reg) is switched off, then the duty
cycle jitter becomes much lower - about 10ns.
Based on this my main conclusions (which may be incorrect) are:
- The problem is not loop stability. When all regs except the noisy G3
reg is switched off, the LF noise dissapears. Also the noisy G3 reg is
isolated from the board which means that its load is not changing
depending on whether the other regs are on or off. I havent done a load
transient test yet though.
- I am thinking there is somehow noise injected from a nearby regulator
on the PWM ramp inside the controller chip because the LF noise is
periodic and depends on whether a nearby controller of the nearly same
freq is on or off. I am rationalizing the fact that changing the freq
of the noisy reg wrt to the others means that their respective PWM
ramps change their phase rapidly (convolve?) wrt to each other which
makes the 'noisy' overlaps last for a shorter time.
Is this a fair conclusion? If so how do I reduce this interference and
how do I methodically find the source of this noise? What is the most
likely entry point for such noise. I can re-lay out the board if
necessary.
I am sorry that I cannot publish the schematic and layout due to
confidentiality issues.
Thanks,
QQ
I am experiencing a problem with some DC/DC non-isolated buck
converters using LM2743, on a otherwise digital board (16 layer) and am
grateful for any help offered.
I have designed a number of voltage mode DC/DC converters on a board.
They are split into - a group of 3 (G3) that are close to one another
and another group of 5 (G5) which are close to one another. They all
run off a 12V power rail. All regulators are running at 350 KHz
switching frequency approximately (the resistor that sets this does not
gaurentee that the frequency will be 'exactly' set).
The problem is - one of the regulators in G3 and one of the regulators
on G5 have a certain amount of low frequency noise (50mV max -
periodic, 4 KHz freq , but not sinusoidal, rather irregular shaped)
that in turn has the normal switching noise (15mV) of the buck topology
riding on it - as measured with a BNC cable probe, on the output caps -
a 'null test' was performed too and I am quite confident that the noise
is real.
From what testing I have done so far, I have observed some symptoms:
During all tests the noisy G3 rail is isolated from everything else on
the board. It had a second noise filter inductor due to an ultra low
noise requirement, which I removed for the testing. Not looked at the
noisy G5 rail as of yet. The noisy G3 rail is 1.2V and the one
immediately next to it is 1.8V. The noisy G5 rail is 5V.
- When the other regulators in G3 are turned off, the low freq noise on
the noisy regulator in G3 is reduced and changes shape but does not go
away altogether.
- When all other regulators on board are switched off the LF noise on
the noisy regulator in G3 goes away altogether.
- If I change the freq of the noisy G3 regulator to 300 kHz or 400 KHz
while keeping switch freq on the other regulators 350 KHz as before, LF
noise on the noisy G3 regulator goes away
- If I change the freq of all regs to 300KHz the noise reappears on the
noisy G3 regulator.
- I tried lifting the SGND (connected by a thin net to PGND as of
now)pin of the chip and connecting it to another ground point - this
doesn't help. I tried air wiring the Vfb net too. This doesnt make the
LF noise go away.
- I checked that the Vcc power (5V) to the switching controller is
clean. This is a differnt Vcc from the noisy 5V regulator mentioned
earlier.
- Basic rules such as short fat planes for the noisy power portion,
AGND isolated from DGND etc. are followed. I am not an expert though
and may have violated some not-so-basic rule of layout.
- If I look at the switching node on a scope I see that the duty cycle
has a jitter of about 50 ns though the frequency is very constant. When
all regulators (except the noisy G3 reg) is switched off, then the duty
cycle jitter becomes much lower - about 10ns.
Based on this my main conclusions (which may be incorrect) are:
- The problem is not loop stability. When all regs except the noisy G3
reg is switched off, the LF noise dissapears. Also the noisy G3 reg is
isolated from the board which means that its load is not changing
depending on whether the other regs are on or off. I havent done a load
transient test yet though.
- I am thinking there is somehow noise injected from a nearby regulator
on the PWM ramp inside the controller chip because the LF noise is
periodic and depends on whether a nearby controller of the nearly same
freq is on or off. I am rationalizing the fact that changing the freq
of the noisy reg wrt to the others means that their respective PWM
ramps change their phase rapidly (convolve?) wrt to each other which
makes the 'noisy' overlaps last for a shorter time.
Is this a fair conclusion? If so how do I reduce this interference and
how do I methodically find the source of this noise? What is the most
likely entry point for such noise. I can re-lay out the board if
necessary.
I am sorry that I cannot publish the schematic and layout due to
confidentiality issues.
Thanks,