Maker Pro
Maker Pro

Simplest latch imaginable

W

Winfield Hill

Jan 1, 1970
0
Winfield Hill wrote...
And surely 16 cents cannot be an issue.

Aha! I found them at 7.8 cents, so there!

Thanks,
- Win

whill_at_picovolt-dot-com (use hill_at_rowland-dot-org for now)
 
F

Fred Bloggs

Jan 1, 1970
0
You may feel good about it but I don't. Fred talks about 200mA currents,
and yet the ABSOLUTE maximum spec for a 2N2222 base current is 200mA.
That's too close for me, I prefer the SCR's 10A max spec safety margin.

There is no such rating- even the P2N2222A from ON is rated at 600mA IC
continuous- and Fairchild rates theirs at 1.0A.
 
F

Frank Bemelman

Jan 1, 1970
0
Fred Bloggs said:
There is no such rating- even the P2N2222A from ON is rated at 600mA IC
continuous- and Fairchild rates theirs at 1.0A.

Base current?
 
F

Fred Bloggs

Jan 1, 1970
0
Winfield said:
Spehro Pefhany wrote...



Thanks, Spef, I was looking at the detailed Philips datasheet.
Manufacturers often leave out the Ib max spec, but one should
not simply substitute the higher Ic max spec in its place.

That Ib,max derives from base junction power dissipation and not the
current handling capability- does current somehow jump from collector to
emitter without going through the base?
 
W

Winfield Hill

Jan 1, 1970
0
Fred Bloggs wrote...
CRY-BABY MOLLIFIER

---+--------+
| |
| \
| 10k
| \
e /
\| |
2N2907A |------+
/| |
c |
| 1N5817 |
+--|>|---+
| |
| c
| |/
+------| 2N2222A
| |\
\ e
10k |
\ |
/ |
| |
----+--------+

The lengths one will go to to avoid using the proper part.
SHUNT
+--o ARM o SAFE o---+ [ mollifier added ]
| | |
+-+--/\/\---+---o~~~~o--+---------/\/\--------+------+
| 100K | ignitor R1 | |
| | | 10K
| | e |
| | \| |
| | 2n2907 |----+
--- | /| |
- 9V | c |
| | 1n5817 | |
| | +-|>|--+
| | | |
| | / 470 | |/
| +------------------o o----/\/\---+----| 2n2222
| | sw | |\
| | 0.47u | e
| === 10K |
| | metal film | |
+-----------+---------------------------------+------+


vs. this smaller, cheaper, better performing, more reliable,
more simple, more sensible SCR version of Fred's circuit:

.. SHUNT
.. +--o ARM o SAFE o---+
.. | | |
.. +-+--/\/\---+---o~~~~o--+------/\/\--------,
.. | 100K | ignitor R1 |
.. | | _|_
.. --- | _\_/_
.. - 9V | / 220 /|
.. | +----------o o----/\/\---+--' | 2n5061
.. | | sw | | 2n5064
.. | === 0.47u 470 |
.. | | metal film | |
.. +-----------+-------------------------+----'

Thanks,
- Win

whill_at_picovolt-dot-com (use hill_at_rowland-dot-org for now)
 
M

mike

Jan 1, 1970
0
Fred said:
CRY-BABY MOLLIFIER



---+--------+
| |
| \
| 10k
| \
e /
\| |
2N2907A |------+
/| |
c |
| 1N5817 |
| - |
+--|>|---+
| - |
| |
| c
| |/
+------| 2N2222A
| |\
\ e
10k |
\ |
/ |
| |
----+--------+

I stared at this for a long time. Still can't figger out what the diode
does. Depending on the source impedance, the base is gonna melt or the
bond wire will blast off long before the diode turns on??? Yes? No?
Stated another way, I ain't mollified.
Won't a couple of base resistors protect the base?
mike


--
Return address is VALID.
Bunch of stuff For Sale and Wanted at the link below.
Toshiba & Compaq LiIon Batteries, Test Equipment
Honda CB-125S $800 in PDX
Yaesu FTV901R Transverter, 30pS pulser
Tektronix Concept Books, spot welding head...
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Monitor/4710/
 
T

Terry Given

Jan 1, 1970
0
I reckon Fred's got it right - in the given application it does actually
work. I have put many discrete SCRs into products, they are extremely cheap.
4c or so buys a dual npn/pnp transistor, but not an scr.....
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

Jan 1, 1970
0
I sit corrected.....but can I buy 5 different parts from 5 different
manufacturers that fit in the same space.....

The 2N506x is a jellybean part, made by a bunch of manufacturers.
On Semi, Teccor, Central Semi, ST, Philips (there's 5). They have been
around (and reasonably priced) for maybe 30 years that I know of, and
are still going strong.

Eg. http://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/2N5060-D.PDF

Note: "preferred device"

The only gotcha to be a bit careful with is the Vdrm rating of
30V/usec typical, so a bit of snubbing might be required in some
applications.
Great to see examples using specified device ratings. IMO its what
distinguishes the engineer from the hacker, and differentiates the
production success from the nightmare.

You mean you don't just start production if the prototype works? ;-)

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
 
F

Fred Bloggs

Jan 1, 1970
0
mike said:
I stared at this for a long time. Still can't figger out what the diode
does. Depending on the source impedance, the base is gonna melt or the
bond wire will blast off long before the diode turns on??? Yes? No?
Stated another way, I ain't mollified.
Won't a couple of base resistors protect the base?
mike

It is assumed that the circuit is in series with a current limited load
- like 200mA. The diode clamps the forward bias of both b-c junctions
simultaneously to approximately 0.25V at this current, preserving
significant hFE in the transistors- as much as 20 @500mA Ice, so that
the base current is now limited to Ice/hFE or about 5mA in this
application. Now the majority of current flows through the
EC,pnp->CE,npn path, so that the total voltage drop is ~ 2x Vce +Vdiode
, and Vce~Vbe,sat-Vdiode for a total of 2xVbe,sat-Vdiode where Vbe,sat
is the BE voltage at the edge of saturation for Ic=200mA- approximately
the same for both transistors. The circuit can be used safely to switch
as much as 500mA. Without the diode, the current splits into two
parallel paths (EC,pnp+ BE,npn)||(EB,pnp+CE,npn) and the split will be
essentially equal since the transistors are complementary- so that
contrary to WHill's slander, it is quite safe and reliable at 200mA.
There is no need for series base resistors and they would only serve to
greatly increase the on-voltage across the circuit. Also, the Schottky
does tend to leak profusely so that the base pulldown resistors should
be reduced to something like 470 ohms - reducing triggering sensitivity
which is a non-issue in this case. The thread was all about another
failed attempt at slander by Hill: first knock the circuit for using one
extra part, then knock the circuit on the technical merits implying the
basic topology is unsalvageable, then get butt handed back to himself,
then return to knock circuit on using one extra part, etc...
 
F

Fred Bloggs

Jan 1, 1970
0
Terry said:
Great to see examples using specified device ratings. IMO its what
distinguishes the engineer from the hacker,...

Any day of the week , FLAKE! It is my observation that the sorriest
excuses for engineers are the weakling maggots who have no analytical
abilities, AND NO TALENT FOR INVENTION OR SYNTHESIS, who always insist
on using the HACK standard part for the HACK standard application, to do
their HACK standard job.
 
W

Winfield Hill

Jan 1, 1970
0
Fred Bloggs wrote...
... The thread was all about another failed attempt at slander
by Hill: first knock the circuit for using one extra part, then
knock the circuit on the technical merits implying the basic
topology is unsalvageable, then get butt handed back to himself,
then return to knock circuit on using one extra part, etc...

WRONG, as usual when you overly defend an awkward circuit.

To Ken Smith's question four days ago, "Why build an SCR when
they can be bought in a TO-92 package?" I simply commented
in response, "Indeed, e.g., 2n5062, 16 cents each. X0202MA,
52 cents each." And later, "Aha! I found them at 7.8 cents."

That, and my comment, "While a BJT base can take higher current
than one might imagine, this is not a good situation." And I
also posted the one available 2n2222 maximum base-current spec,
comparing it to the 10A spec for the TO-92 jelly-bean SCR.

And finally my version of Fred's circuit, illustrating the
elegant simplicity allowed by using a real honest SCR.

.. SHUNT
.. +--o ARM o SAFE o---+
.. | | |
.. +-+--/\/\---+---o~~~~o--+------/\/\--------,
.. | 100K | ignitor R1 |
.. | | _|_
.. --- | _\_/_
.. - 9V | / 220 /|
.. | +----------o o----/\/\---+--' | 2n5061
.. | | sw | | 2n5064
.. | === 0.47u 470 |
.. | | metal film | |
.. +-----------+-------------------------+----'

I labeled this circuit, "smaller, cheaper, better performing,
more reliable, more simple, more sensible." Accurate points.

None of this is slander, it's calm engineering discussion.


Thanks,
- Win

whill_at_picovolt-dot-com (use hill_at_rowland-dot-org for now)
 
J

John Miller

Jan 1, 1970
0
Winfield said:
None of this is slander, it's calm engineering discussion.

Not aiming this at you Win, but have you ever noticed how many engineers
have the ability to utter relationship-ending things without ever realizing
it?
 
R

Richard Henry

Jan 1, 1970
0
John Miller said:
Not aiming this at you Win, but have you ever noticed how many engineers
have the ability to utter relationship-ending things without ever realizing
it?

He (engineer): Have you changed your hair?
She: Do you like it?
He. Makes you look fat.
 
F

Fred Bloggs

Jan 1, 1970
0
Winfield said:
Fred Bloggs wrote...



WRONG, as usual when you overly defend an awkward circuit.

To Ken Smith's question four days ago, "Why build an SCR when
they can be bought in a TO-92 package?" I simply commented
in response, "Indeed, e.g., 2n5062, 16 cents each. X0202MA,
52 cents each." And later, "Aha! I found them at 7.8 cents."

That, and my comment, "While a BJT base can take higher current
than one might imagine, this is not a good situation." And I
also posted the one available 2n2222 maximum base-current spec,
comparing it to the 10A spec for the TO-92 jelly-bean SCR.

And finally my version of Fred's circuit, illustrating the
elegant simplicity allowed by using a real honest SCR.

. SHUNT
. +--o ARM o SAFE o---+
. | | |
. +-+--/\/\---+---o~~~~o--+------/\/\--------,
. | 100K | ignitor R1 |
. | | _|_
. --- | _\_/_
. - 9V | / 220 /|
. | +----------o o----/\/\---+--' | 2n5061
. | | sw | | 2n5064
. | === 0.47u 470 |
. | | metal film | |
. +-----------+-------------------------+----'

I labeled this circuit, "smaller, cheaper, better performing,
more reliable, more simple, more sensible." Accurate points.

None of this is slander, it's calm engineering discussion.


Thanks,
- Win

whill_at_picovolt-dot-com (use hill_at_rowland-dot-org for now)

I told you that there was no comparison between the SCR and
dual-transistor circuit other than ease of implementation-everyone in
the world has a 2n2222/2907 somewhere in their house whether they know
it or not-and those particular parts can be configured into numerous
circuits:
Please view in a fixed-width font such as Courier.




. SHUNT
. +--o ARM o SAFE o---+
. | | |
. +-+--/\/\---+---o~~~~o--+---+----/\/\---------+
. | 100K ignitor | | 22 |
. | | e |
. --- | \| |
. - 9V | +--/\/\---------+
. | | /| 1K |
. | +-----------+ c |
. | | | |
. | | | c
. | | / | 220 |/
. | +------o o-----+--/\/\---+-----|
. | | sw | |\
. | === 0.47u 470 e
. | | metal film | |
. +-----------+-------------------------+-------+
 
W

Winfield Hill

Jan 1, 1970
0
John Miller wrote...
Not aiming this at you Win, but have you ever noticed how many
engineers have the ability to utter relationship-ending things
without ever realizing it?

Yeah, well, you you you... John Miller... just watch your step!!

:>)


Thanks,
- Win

whill_at_picovolt-dot-com (use hill_at_rowland-dot-org for now)
 
J

Jim Thompson

Jan 1, 1970
0
He (engineer): Have you changed your hair?
She: Do you like it?
He. Makes you look fat.

As one who has sustained/survived 44 years of marriage, the correct
response is....

He (engineer): Have you changed your hair?
She: Do you like it?
He. I liked the other style MUCH better.

...Jim Thompson
 
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