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Simple question about a 555 in one-shot (monostable) mode

Discussion in 'Electronic Basics' started by AINTME, Sep 7, 2007.

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  1. AINTME

    AINTME Guest

    I have a 555 timer in monostable mode. I output a 45 second pulse. No
    problem doing this. What I want to do though is to delay triggering this
    pulse while another signal is high (12V) - what control do I use to do
    this?

    So: while input signal is 12v the output must stay high. When the input
    signal goes low then I want the one-shot to trigger maintaining the output
    (still) high for 45 seconds and then go low.

    Can anyone help?

    Thanks.
     
  2. Jamie

    Jamie Guest

    If I understand you correctly, You want a low transition or just a
    low signal to start a One shot timer however, you don't want any other
    transitions (resets) to effect the timer until it has expired it's
    45 second count?
    this is called a gate.

    You have a couple of options here. use an OR gate where as the 555
    timer out goes to one input and your Reset Line(trigger) is the
    other input. the OR gate output would then control the RESET line for
    example.
    with this, when the 555 output is high, it will hold the GATE's output
    on, this is because it's an OR gate, one or the other needs to be on for
    the output to be on. This also means, a low on the other input will not
    be seen at the RESET pin.

    If you want to cut corners. place a NPN transistor in there instead.

    Emitter to the 555 timer out, collector to the RESET Pin. use a pull
    up resistor on the RESET line. and use a bias resistor on the base.
    you don't need much current.
    the difference here is, you'll now need s + level to reset it instead
    of a - level because you'll be biasing the NPN.
    when 555 output goes high. there will be now path to pull the RESET
    pin to low once the timer starts.

    I guess it's a matter of choice.

    Btw, if you have multiple points of triggers, you can
    isolate them via diodes with either method.
    only the RESET pin directly will override.
     
  3. AINTME

    AINTME Guest


    Sorry, that's not quite what I meant - I'll try to explain it better.
    Under normal circumstances the circuit outputs a pulse of 45 seconds as
    soon as it is energized (in a one shot configuration)
    However there is this other line that goes between o and 12 volts.
    Anytime this signal goes to 12 volts I want the whole process to freeze
    and only start the 45 second pulse after that signal goes from 12 back to
    0 volts. In other words if the signal goes high (no matter if the 555
    output is already high)I want the output to go low 45 seconds AFTER the
    12volts go back to 0. I think there may be a pin on the 555 that will do
    this I just don't know which one will do it. Or maybe I need an external
    gate.

    Thanks for your help.
     
  4. Sjouke Burry

    Sjouke Burry Guest

    What you want is a "retriggerable oneshot",google gives as first result
    http://stuff.mit.edu/~6.131/datasheets/74ls123.pdf
    If you insist on using the 555, then use the same signal you use for
    triggering, to keep the timing cap discharged.
    Then on last removal of the trigger, the cap starts charging, and you
    get 45 seconds.
    Without extra components you wont succeed.
     
  5. AINTME

    AINTME Guest

    I think this will put me on the right track - it is a retriggerable
    oneshot I'm after - I did not know what it was called - having a name for
    it will help me with my search and also the fact that you say that I need
    extra components other than the timer.

    Thank you for your help!
     
  6. Rich Grise

    Rich Grise Guest

    Is that 12V-to-0V transition the _only_ thing that's clocking your
    one-shot, or is it merely an inhibit and there's a different signal
    triggering the one-shot?

    Incidentally, it might be a convenient time for you to learn about
    timing diagrams. :)

    Cheers!
    Rich
     
  7. Jamie

    Jamie Guest

    You want a Time off Delay that has it's time restarted when ever the
    12 volts appears.

    Just use a NPN transistor in common emitter to pull the Time Const cap
    down to ground while the 12 volts is on. This will keep the cap
    discharged and the output should remain on once the timer has been
    triggered.
    In the case where the timer is off when the 12 volts comes on. You
    can put another NPN on the TRIGGER pin common emitter. this will make
    sure it gets started.
    You could if you wish. Use the same first transistor to pull the
    TRIGGER to ground but you would need an isolation diode from that
    transistor to the discharge pin with the anode to the discharge pin
    and cathode to the collector, the TRIGGER could then be connected to
    to the collector. If you don't use this diode, in turn what would happen
    is it would not be a one shot any more. It would then start oscillating
    because the discharge would come on internally when the Threshold is
    reached. You don't want that to feed back to the trigger at that point:)

    P.S.
    You need to keep the Vcc on always to the timer. I don't know how your
    doing it now but I suspect you are using initial power on ? Just use the
    NPN transistor configuration as I explained. That is how most Delay off
    timers I've seen are configured in the industrial world. It only makes
    sense.
     
  8. ehsjr

    ehsjr Guest


    By combining your posts, I understand it as this:
    You want a (+) output as long as the input is (+)
    and it must stay (+) for 45 seconds after the
    input drops. There must be no gap, no matter how
    small, in the (+) output when the input signal
    drops. You might be able to get away with oring
    the 555 output with the input, but the brief
    transition time of the 555 from non-triggered to
    triggered when the input drops could create a gap.

    My suggestion is that you add 3 transistors and support
    components to the 45 second 555, like this:

    PNP
    +12 ---------------------+----------------- ----+
    | e\ /c |
    | --- Q2 |
    | | |
    [10K] [1K] |
    | | |
    +-------------------+ +---> Out
    | | |
    /c |c |
    +----+-------+---| NPN / |
    | | | \e Q1 +------| NPN |
    [.1uF] [100K] [D1] | | \e Q3 |
    | | |a | [3.3K] | [1K]
    | | | | | | |
    | | Input-+---- | --[555]--+ | |
    | | | | |
    Gnd --+----+-------------+-------------------+------+


    (+) on the input will turn Q1 on through D1. That will turn
    Q2 on, so you get a (+) out. When the input goes (-), the .1 uF
    in parallel with the 100K will hold the base of Q1 (+) briefly,
    keeping Q1 (and therefore Q2) on while the 555 triggers. That way,
    there will be no dropout of the (+) output during transition. D1
    prevents the (+) on the base of Q1 from interfereing with the
    (-) trigger on the 555, so the 555 will trigger when the input
    goes (-). The 555 output goes (+), which turns Q3 on. Q3 turns Q2
    on, so the output stays (+). When the 555 times out 45 seconds
    later, Q3 (and therefore Q2) turns off, and the output goes (-).

    Ed
     
  9. AINTME

    AINTME Guest

    I did not include a timing diagram because the ascii drawings look all
    jumbled in my reader (Xnews) the only way I can see them is by emailing
    the posting to myself - I can't however, reverse that process (write the
    email and then post, it doesn't work).
    Thank you for your input.
     
  10. AINTME

    AINTME Guest

    Yes, thank you, this seems like it will work. Like another poster
    suggested... what I need if a retriggerable monostable cct. Your cct here
    seems pretty close to what I wanna do.
    Thank you.
     
  11. AINTME

    AINTME Guest

    The 45sec one shot triggers as soon as power is applied to the chip.The
    output goes high right away.
    But it will stay on as long as the other signal is 12volts after this
    signal goes to 0 then the output goes low 45 seconds later. Everytime the
    control signal goes hi it keeps the output hi until 45 seconds after the
    signal goes back to 0v.
     
  12. AINTME

    AINTME Guest

    I'm getting a lot of good ideas from you guys - thank you very much.
     
  13. Dleer

    Dleer Guest

    "and" the 2 inputs, you'll have to get levels compatible if using ttl
     
  14. Jamie

    Jamie Guest




    TRIGGER_____________
    o-------| |
    : | |
    : | |
    : | 555 |
    : | |
    : | |
    : | | D1 small signal type.
    : | |Discharge
    : | |->|---+---- (C)
    : |___________| : \
    : : |-(B)-[4.7k]--- 12V signal.
    : : /
    : : : (E) NPN switching
    :--------------------------- :
    :
    GRD

    I don't know how thats going to appear ..that was done in note pad.
    add that to the circuit..
    when the 12V comes on, that will hit the trigger and hold the charge
    state low while it's on. This will keep the output on.
    when you remove the 12 volts, the timer will start charging the cap,
    output will remain on. if the 12 volts comes in before the cap gets
    charged enought to hit the threshold, the NPN transistor will discharge
    it again to reset its time back to the start. pulling the trigger this
    time will make no difference.
    When the charge reaches 2/3 Vcc voltage, the threshold will trip
    which will then put the internal flip flop Q output back to low again
    that reflects on the 555 output. etc.. This was out of my head.
    if you're not using a low ESR Cap, D1 should be ok with a simple
    200 ma type diode., it also depends on the slew rate of the 12V control
    signal.
     
  15. John Fields

    John Fields Guest

    ---

    View in Courier:

    +12V>----------------+------+---------+--------+
    |R1 | | |R4
    [10M] | | [3K3]
    | | | |
    Q1 | | +---|--[1M]--+
    2N3904 | |R2 | | R3 |
    C----+ [10K]<--+--|+\ |
    VIN>--[10K]---B | | | >------+-->VOUT
    E +------|--------|-/ U1A
    | |+ | | LM393
    | [4.7µF] | |
    | |C1 | |
    GND>------------+----+------+---------+----------->GND


    With no +12V, C1 will be discharged and 0V will appear on U1A-.

    Then, when power comes up, U1A+ will go more positive than U1A-,
    causing VOUT to rise to +12V and stay there until C1 charges to a
    voltage higher than that on U1A+. At that time VOUT will fall to
    about 0.4V worst case.

    Any time VIN goes high it will turn on Q1, which will discharge C1
    quickly, making the voltage on U1A- more negative than the voltage
    on U1A+, forcing VOUT high until VIN goes low and allows C1 to
    charge up again.

    R2 should be set somewhere in the vicinity of 8V for a 45 second
    timeout and it would be a good idea to use a polyester (Mylar) cap
    for C1 in order to get low leakage and a reasonable tempco. If you
    want to/have to use an aluminum electrolytic, observe polarity.

    Also, connect all of the unused pins of the second comparator to
    ground.
     
  16. John Fields

    John Fields Guest

    ---
    Slow day...

    Version 4
    SHEET 1 880 680
    WIRE 0 96 -416 96
    WIRE 128 96 0 96
    WIRE 320 96 128 96
    WIRE 448 96 320 96
    WIRE 0 128 0 96
    WIRE 128 128 128 96
    WIRE 448 128 448 96
    WIRE 320 224 320 96
    WIRE 0 240 0 208
    WIRE 288 240 0 240
    WIRE 0 256 0 240
    WIRE 0 256 -96 256
    WIRE 448 256 448 208
    WIRE 448 256 352 256
    WIRE 128 272 128 208
    WIRE 240 272 128 272
    WIRE 288 272 240 272
    WIRE -272 304 -320 304
    WIRE -160 304 -192 304
    WIRE 0 304 0 256
    WIRE 128 304 128 272
    WIRE 320 320 320 288
    WIRE -416 336 -416 96
    WIRE -320 336 -320 304
    WIRE 240 384 240 272
    WIRE 288 384 240 384
    WIRE 448 384 448 256
    WIRE 448 384 368 384
    WIRE -416 448 -416 416
    WIRE -320 448 -320 416
    WIRE -320 448 -416 448
    WIRE -96 448 -96 352
    WIRE -96 448 -320 448
    WIRE 0 448 0 368
    WIRE 0 448 -96 448
    WIRE 128 448 128 384
    WIRE 128 448 0 448
    WIRE -416 496 -416 448
    FLAG 320 320 0
    FLAG -416 496 0
    SYMBOL Comparators\\LT1017 320 256 R0
    SYMATTR InstName U1
    SYMBOL res 384 368 R90
    WINDOW 0 66 54 VBottom 0
    WINDOW 3 72 58 VTop 0
    SYMATTR InstName R1
    SYMATTR Value 1e6
    SYMBOL res 432 112 R0
    WINDOW 0 48 44 Left 0
    SYMATTR InstName R2
    SYMATTR Value 10k
    SYMBOL res 112 112 R0
    WINDOW 0 38 42 Left 0
    SYMATTR InstName R3
    SYMATTR Value 10k
    SYMBOL res 112 288 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R4
    SYMATTR Value 20k
    SYMBOL res -16 112 R0
    WINDOW 0 45 40 Left 0
    SYMATTR InstName R5
    SYMATTR Value 10e6
    SYMBOL cap -16 304 R0
    SYMATTR InstName C1
    SYMATTR Value 4.7e-6
    SYMBOL voltage -416 320 R0
    WINDOW 3 24 104 Invisible 0
    WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 0
    WINDOW 39 0 0 Left 0
    SYMATTR InstName V1
    SYMATTR Value PULSE(0 12 1 1e-6 1e-6)
    SYMBOL npn -160 256 R0
    WINDOW 0 62 20 Left 0
    WINDOW 3 30 47 Left 0
    SYMATTR InstName Q1
    SYMATTR Value 2N3904
    SYMBOL voltage -320 320 R0
    WINDOW 3 24 104 Invisible 0
    WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 0
    WINDOW 39 0 0 Left 0
    SYMATTR InstName V2
    SYMATTR Value PULSE(0 12 60 1e-6 1e-6 10)
    SYMBOL res -176 288 R90
    WINDOW 0 -39 56 VBottom 0
    WINDOW 3 -38 62 VTop 0
    SYMATTR InstName R6
    SYMATTR Value 10k
    TEXT -392 472 Left 0 !.tran 240
     
  17. AINTME

    AINTME Guest

    [posted and mailed]


    Thank you John.
     
  18. Rich Grise

    Rich Grise Guest

    Just the inputs. Leave the output floating.

    Cheers!
    Rich
     
  19. John Fields

    John Fields Guest

    ---
    Interesting...

    Their 1989 General Purpose Linear Devices databook, 5-65 states:
    "All pins of any unused comparators should be grounded", while page
    8 of the datasheet at:

    http://cache.national.com/ds/LM/LM193.pdf


    states: "All input pins of any unused comparators should be tied to
    the negative supply."
     
  20. Rich Grise

    Rich Grise Guest

    I will grant you that grounding an open-collector output would do
    no harm, but I wonder if it's really beneficial, i.e., would it
    make any actual difference in the operation overall?

    Thanks,
    Rich
     
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