Connect with us

Silly Electric motor improvement

Discussion in 'General Electronics' started by Chris, Dec 26, 2005.

Scroll to continue with content
  1. Chris

    Chris Guest

    Children generally suggest all sorts of things because education has not
    taught them that the toys they play with can't possibly work. Ever seen the
    "Nutcracker"?

    My silly electric motor inspiration is not exactly childish it is that the
    force between conductors carrying current is the motor force (not
    electro-magnets) and that this force is bigger for a fixed distance if a
    ferrite is placed between them so we don't need that heavy yoke just a thin
    layer of ferrite embedding the conductors in the armature facing the stator
    and in the stator conductors too. There is no need for any other heavy
    metal, magnetic circuits or stuff like that. This will make motors lighter
    and more effecient because of the removal of lossy iron.

    Get up to date you motorists!

    Chris.
     
  2. Genius!

    [Aside........"Eh?"]

    Si
     
  3. Ferrites are brittle, lousy heat conductors, and more expensive than
    the materials you propose to replace them with.


    Mark L. Fergerson
     
  4. Stuart Gray

    Stuart Gray Guest

    In which case, the idea will be adopted by the major car manufacturers
    forthwith. ;-)
     
  5. PC Paul

    PC Paul Guest

    If I read him right, he's only suggesting a thin layer of ferrite to reduce
    the gap between the stator and rotor hence increasing the force. None of
    your points actually affect that aspect at all.

    However, the idea that electric motors are not *already* made with the
    tightest reliable tolerance available strikes me as pretty unlikely...
     
  6. Sjouke Burry

    Sjouke Burry Guest

    Sorry dude, sombody else has already invented the ironless
    rotor motor, either as a printed disk rotor or as a cage
    rotor(looks like a cup,made of copper and glue only).
    They are used for very high speed low enertia applications.
    The disk rotor for exsample is at full speed in about
    10 milliseconds, and an ideal component in servomotor
    applications.
     
  7. Chris

    Chris Guest

    If I read him right, he's only suggesting a thin layer of ferrite to
    The thin ferrite layer is to replace all the iron, there is no need for it.
    Think like a capacitor the dielectric is only between the plates. The
    ferrite only needs to be between the two layers of conductors and to embed
    the conductors in it.
     
  8. Chris

    Chris Guest

    That is not a suprise we all make iron less motors at school in the 2 grade.
    Like everyone else I've made dozens of them.

    The very simple cage motor is also well known and I really fail to see why
    such complicated windings are used. This type with ferrite used as
    described would make a very cheap, light motor.

    The actual invention is the use of ferrite (not new) and its distribution
    only between the two layers of conductors and embeding the conductors in it.
    (I've not seen this anywhere).

    Chris.
     
  9. shazzbat

    shazzbat Guest

    All you need to do now is make one, prove it works, patent it worldwide, get
    manufacturing licences sorted out, and retire to Bermuda. No problem.

    Steve.
     
  10. Contrary to popular folklore, in the U.S., at least, you don't even need
    to make one (the requirement for a working model went away decades ago);
    you need only to convince a patent examiner that it will work.
     
  11. Jasen Betts

    Jasen Betts Guest

    ["Followup-To:" header set to sci.electronics.]
    In conventional motors the magnetic material is behind the conductors.
    the large mass of iron is needed to carry the amount of magnetic field
    produced by the high currents in the rotor.

    if you put an unbroken layer of ferrite in front of the conductors
    it will shield them from the magnetic filed on the other side of
    the ferrite, this will make the motor less efficient.
     
  12. CWatters

    CWatters Guest

    Way too late as Google will tell you.....

    See (for example)...

    http://www.thingap.com/
    Quote: ThinGap's modern electromotive coil technology establishes a power
    standard for DC brush and brushless motors, generators, and actuators. The
    modern coreless circular copper coil increases copper density in the
    magnetic gap. This coil eliminates problems inherent in iron core and wire
    wound motors.

    Photo
    http://www.thingap.com/images/ThinGapCoil13.jpg
     
  13. default

    default Guest

    There are probably some use for ferrite in the "ironless" rotors to
    improve their efficiency, but what you are suggesting is probably not
    going to work (with currently available metal alloys and processing
    techniques). Ferrites have lower permeability than iron.

    For high efficiency the magnetic circuit has to be as short as
    possible. To carry the same magnetic field would take more ferrite
    material than iron in the same application. The obvious choice would
    be to use more ferrite, but then the windings have to cover more area
    and copper losses, size, weight, and expense go up.
     
  14. Chris

    Chris Guest

    There is no need for the magnetic circuit as the magnetic field does not
    exist, it is a ficticious field that is the consequence of special
    relativity and electrons moving relative to fixed charges in the conductors
    and in other conductors.

    The concept of the magnetic field is false. Chuck it in the bin.

    There are different ferrites and by using a smaller amount of high
    permeabilty material then you have a lighter motor. You can use Barium
    Titanate as it is a high permittivity material and that also improves the
    force over a vaccuum. There is a numerical conversion between the
    permaabilty and permittivity it is just related by a constant multiplier. I
    think it is c.

    Chris.
     
  15. Chris

    Chris Guest

    The iron "behind" the conductors only wastes energy in edy currents it has
    no efect on the force. If you recall electric motor design the conductors
    are in slots and the force is on the conductors in the slots. The force is
    only increased by the high permeability between the concutor layers. All the
    rest does not do anything.

    I'm just working out a patent application (sorry you too late - you've
    published it!)

    Chris.
     
  16. Don Stauffer

    Don Stauffer Guest

    There must be some hysteresis loss in the ferrite. Is the mass of the
    ferrite enough to keep it from being damaged by the heat? Most of the
    ferrites I am familiar with are somewhat lossy.
     
  17. Steve Firth

    Steve Firth Guest

    And that is why soft iron is used instead of ferrite.
     
  18. Karl Uppiano

    Karl Uppiano Guest

    If you are right, you will be credited with revolutionizing the power and
    energy industries, and may finally free us from dependence on foreign oil. I
    would be surprised if experienced magnetics engineers haven't already
    optimized their designs, but you could prove me wrong.
     
  19. Chris

    Chris Guest

    I have very little knowledge of the hystresis loss of ferrite but there are
    several ferrites but the hysteresis loss could well be a problem. I only
    thought of the eddy currents. Another material is dust soft iron embeded in
    a resin matrix. However the principle of only putting the high permeablity
    material between the layers conductors and embed them in it is the only
    relevent point.

    Chris.
     
  20. Jasen Betts

    Jasen Betts Guest

    ["Followup-To:" header set to sci.electronics.]
    QM says otherwise
    what do you intend to replace it with,

    hopefully whatever you replace it with can explain the operation of a
    solenoid, if not it has little chance of being useful in motor design.

    Bye.
    Jasen
     
Ask a Question
Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?
You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments (here). After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.
Electronics Point Logo
Continue to site
Quote of the day

-