Sick of sample-based "synthesis"!

[Radium]

Sample-based synths are stale and rigid. Any sound effect in action
will noticeably quantize and alias the music. They are a hell an
earsore for life-wanting instruments such as synth pads and synth fx.
The tone of synth pads are generated on FM synths! No wonder pads
sound so crappy in samplers.

A *real* digital (not analog) FM/modelling synth is a dream! It should
be hard-coded and able to do its own processing and memory.


Whatever happened to the fresh OPL3 stereo hardware synth present in
obsolete ISA boards?? Most PCI cards implenting OPL3 and clones of
that synth. Clones = cheats!

 

[Jerry Avins]

Radium wrote:

...

A *real* digital (not analog) FM/modelling synth is a dream! It should
be hard-coded and able to do its own processing and memory.

...

Clue me in, Bub. How do you hard code an analog synth? Why does it need
memory?

Jerry

 

[Radium]

C-O-R-R-E-C-T-I-O-N:

Most PCI card implementing OPL3 *are* clones of that synth.

 

[Radium]

Radium wrote:

...
...

Clue me in, Bub. How do you hard code an analog synth?

Notice I mentioned that a *digital* hardware synth would be my cup of
tea. Never would I recommend analog synths - they are highly
vulnerable to RFI, EMI, and other electronic disruptions.

Why does it need
memory?

Okay I'm probably wrong on this one.

 

[Les Cargill]

Notice I mentioned that a *digital* hardware synth would be my cup of
tea. Never would I recommend analog synths - they are highly
vulnerable to RFI, EMI, and other electronic disruptions.


Okay I'm probably wrong on this one.

Digital isn't FM and vice versa. DX-7s and later revisions of
DX-7s are not hard to find.

There exist also VSTi which claim to do FM synthesis.

 

[Dave Tweed]

A *real* digital (not analog) FM/modelling synth is a dream! It should
be hard-coded and able to do its own processing and memory.

Have you looked at the Nord Modular from Clavia?
http://www.clavia.se/nordmodular/index.htm

There are several models, but the basic idea is to have anywhere from
one to eight dedicated DSPs doing emulation of old-style modular analog
synthesizers while allowing advanced techniques that only a DSP chip can
do. FM and physical modelling are quite doable on these units, and the
patch editor (runs on a Windows PC, connects through a pair of dedicated
MIDI cables) is set up to look like a virtual analog modular synth,
complete with virtual patch cables.

-- Dave Tweed

 

[Radium]

Digital isn't FM and vice versa.

Why?

 

[Les Cargill]

Why?

That was me, not Jerry Avins.

Digital ROMplers play back samples. FM synthesis is, well,
FM synthesis. Two totally different technologies.

 

[Jerry Avins]

Notice I mentioned that a *digital* hardware synth would be my cup of
tea. Never would I recommend analog synths - they are highly
vulnerable to RFI, EMI, and other electronic disruptions.

My remark to you was only one of the stupid misreadings I did that
night. Forget it. I hope everybody else does, too.

Jerry

 

[Radium]

That was me, not Jerry Avins.

Digital ROMplers play back samples. FM synthesis is, well,
FM synthesis. Two totally different technologies.

FM synthesis in OPL3 is digital. It is important to note that digital
does not necessarily mean samples just like analog does not
necessarily mean cassettes.

 

[Les Cargill]

FM synthesis in OPL3 is digital.

By which you mean it's PCM? Or is it what I'd understood;
digital control of analog signals?

It is important to note that digital
does not necessarily mean samples just like analog does not
necessarily mean cassettes.

Bad time to bring up DCC, then?

 

[Radium]

By which you mean it's PCM? Or is it what I'd understood;
digital control of analog signals?

PCM is used by samplers. OPL3 uses digital FM signals - totally
different. Prior to 1980 FM synths were analog. However, this method
was impractical and expensive. In an analog FM synth the signals
smoothly vary by their frequency. In a digital FM synth the signals
vary by their frequency in discete steps.

Bad time to bring up DCC, then?

???

 

[Eric C. Weaver]

Digital isn't FM and vice versa. DX-7s and later revisions of
DX-7s are not hard to find.

Beg yer pardon, but FM and digital are not mutually exclusive at all.

I impelemented FM sythesis on an LSI-11 micro in assembler back in 1983 or so,
and it worked as well as any single-operator FM synthesizer could.

 

[Randy Yates]

[...]
In an analog FM synth the signals
smoothly vary by their frequency. In a digital FM synth the signals
vary by their frequency in discete steps.

An "analog FM" synth? Never heard of such a thing. The old
popular analog synths like the Minimoog and Arp Odyssey used
plain old "subtractive" synthesis, i.e., they'd generate a
waveform (sawtooth, square wave, sin-ish, etc.), then remove
part of it with a lowpass filter (a VCF). Of course you could
modulate the filter cutoff with the ADSR generator and/or the
LFO. Same with the VCA.

And yes, they were horrid. Especially when you get them up on
stage in front of hot lights where the temperature was changing.
--
% Randy Yates % "...the answer lies within your soul
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC % 'cause no one knows which side
%%% 919-577-9882 % the coin will fall."
%%%% <[email protected]> % 'Big Wheels', *Out of the Blue*, ELO
http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr

 

[Les Cargill]

Beg yer pardon, but FM and digital are not mutually exclusive at all.

I wouldn't be at all surprosed. I was speaking from the point
of view of an MI consumer, which is where I was guessing the guy was
coming from.

I impelemented FM sythesis on an LSI-11 micro in assembler back in 1983 or so,
and it worked as well as any single-operator FM synthesizer could.

Was there a D/A involved?

 

[Radium]

[...]
In an analog FM synth the signals
smoothly vary by their frequency. In a digital FM synth the signals
vary by their frequency in discete steps.

An "analog FM" synth? Never heard of such a thing.

Exactly. Neither have I.

I have no idea what Les Cargill means about FM being differen from
digital. FM synths are digital, like it or not. I don't see why they
shouldn't be. Most analog systems have poor SNRs, are bulky, and need
physical precision to play decently.

Samplers are different from FM synths even though both groups are
digital. Samplers have a stale cut-off at high frequencies. Samplers
are suckers for synth sounds. Synth pads, synth FX, synth lead, synth
bass are a torture to listen to when played through sample-based
synths. After all, these "synth" sounds were generated on an FM synth
to begin with. Record them into samples and of course they will rot.

The old
popular analog synths like the Minimoog and Arp Odyssey used
plain old "subtractive" synthesis, i.e., they'd generate a
waveform (sawtooth, square wave, sin-ish, etc.), then remove
part of it with a lowpass filter (a VCF). Of course you could
modulate the filter cutoff with the ADSR generator and/or the
LFO. Same with the VCA.

Low-pass filter was necessary to cut-off the unpleasant hiss. This is
definitely not a problem in FM synths.

 

[Randy Yates]

[...]

In an analog FM synth the signals
smoothly vary by their frequency. In a digital FM synth the signals
vary by their frequency in discete steps.

An "analog FM" synth? Never heard of such a thing.

Exactly. Neither have I.

I have no idea what Les Cargill means about FM being differen from
digital. FM synths are digital, like it or not. I don't see why they
shouldn't be. Most analog systems have poor SNRs, are bulky, and need
physical precision to play decently.

Samplers are different from FM synths even though both groups are
digital.

I agree so far.

Samplers have a stale cut-off at high frequencies. Samplers
are suckers for synth sounds. Synth pads, synth FX, synth lead, synth
bass are a torture to listen to when played through sample-based
synths. After all, these "synth" sounds were generated on an FM synth
to begin with. Record them into samples and of course they will rot.

No opinion here.

Low-pass filter was necessary to cut-off the unpleasant hiss. This is
definitely not a problem in FM synths.

I disagree here. I never remember hearing hiss out of the Moog. And
even if there were, the filter was not for the hiss, but rather was
a significant part of the instrument's sound. Especially when you
cranked the Q so that you could hear the cutoff frequency as a
whistle. Re: the end of ELP's "Lucky Man" where he holds that
low, low synth note and tweaks the LP filter.
--
% Randy Yates % "...the answer lies within your soul
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC % 'cause no one knows which side
%%% 919-577-9882 % the coin will fall."
%%%% <[email protected]> % 'Big Wheels', *Out of the Blue*, ELO
http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr

 

[Les Cargill]

Beg yer pardon, but FM and digital are not mutually exclusive at all.

I impelemented FM sythesis on an LSI-11 micro in assembler back in 1983 or so,
and it worked as well as any single-operator FM synthesizer could.

So this process was purely in the digital domain?

 

[Randy Yates]

So this process was purely in the digital domain?

Yes. Digital oscillators with numerically-controlled frequencies
are used. The outputs of the digital oscillators are PCM streams
that are summed into a composite PCM stream, which can then be
converted to analog in the usual fashion.
--
% Randy Yates % "...the answer lies within your soul
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC % 'cause no one knows which side
%%% 919-577-9882 % the coin will fall."
%%%% <[email protected]> % 'Big Wheels', *Out of the Blue*, ELO
http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr

 

[Les Cargill]

Yes. Digital oscillators with numerically-controlled frequencies
are used. The outputs of the digital oscillators are PCM streams
that are summed into a composite PCM stream, which can then be
converted to analog in the usual fashion.

Randy, thanks. You've disabused me of yet another badly gathered
hunk of malinformation. This shows why we should teach synthesis
in the schools, rather than letting children learn about it on
the playground.