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SIA protocol

Discussion in 'Security Alarms' started by Juan Gomez, Jul 27, 2004.

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  1. Juan Gomez

    Juan Gomez Guest

    Hi All:

    I'm looking for high detailed technical information on SIA Protocol.

    I have already invest on SIA standards SIA DC-02 and SIA DC-05 for
    other formats and I don't want to waste more money for such low
    quality documents.

    Could someone share with me SIA DC-03, SIA DC-04 and SIA DC-07
    Standards?

    Any other technical information regarding communication formats will
    be appreciated.

    TIA

    Juan G. Gomez
     
  2. Mark Leuck

    Mark Leuck Guest

    Wouldn't the other documents also be low quality?

    You have to buy them
     
  3. Juan Gomez

    Juan Gomez Guest

    Hello Mark:

    The idea of a newsgroup is to share information with people of similar
    interests for the benefit of the group and each member. Remember that.

    Probably all the documents are low quality, but it's the only source
    of technical information available that I know. If there is any other
    source for such information please tell me. But for sure the documents
    that I already bought don't worth 100 bucks each.

    If we help each other we can develop new and better products and
    services with lower costs that can be of benefit to the whole industry
    and probably to you also.

    Regards

    Juan G. Gomez
     
  4. Mark Leuck

    Mark Leuck Guest

    Those documents are for sale only and giving them to someone is illegal.
    Remember that
    No you just want others who have paid for the documents to give them to you
    for free
     
  5. Juan Gomez

    Juan Gomez Guest

    Ok, Ok, now I understand: this newsgroup is not for sharing
    information but for some people to make business.

    I asked for information on the technical aspects of the SIA format, if
    you think it's illegal to send the SIA document, and if you want to
    help, you can send the proper information and not the entire document.
    Now if you don't want to help at all it's easier to argue about legal
    aspects.

    Reading back in the newsgroup, the same people who are accused of
    illegal things, post copyrighted text here and on their own websites
    are against sharing copyrighted information. What's that, a double
    moral issue or my only interest is my webstore?

    If we can change this newsgroup attitude, we could grow the tools and
    knowledge
    of the group and their members, I have seen that almost everything
    unrelated to selling remains unanswered: unlocking panels, DSC Keybus,
    modem connection using SIA protocol to central station, communication
    formats, computer interface. Is there any new knowledge that someone
    learned here? Have you seen that there is no GNU (General Public
    License) project related to this industry?
    There are so many things that can be done all together for our
    benefit, a GNU alarm panel, receiver, computer interface, TCP/IP
    module, better software... Yes I know most of you don't have the
    knowledge, but when someone with the knowledge appears in the group
    nobody helps.

    Regarding the quality of SIA documents: for example DC-02 has only 6
    real pages of technical information, I understand the information this
    is not my problem, but there are many missing issues like the usual
    names of the formats explained, waveforms (can a square wave signal be
    sent?), distortion allowed, noise allowed in the lines, crosstalk
    issues, and many other technical issues not mentioned. Later we ask
    why so many false alarms and problems with the panel communicator. And
    at 16.66 bucks per page I expect something better.

    So,I will try one more time, I am looking for detailed technical
    information on the SIA protocol (as per DC-03 and DC-04 SIA
    documents). Also I'm looking for the computer interface communication
    protocol (as per DC-07 SIA documents), I have some information on them
    but I want to complete it. Could someone help?

    TIA

    Juan G. Gomez
     
  6. Mark Leuck

    Mark Leuck Guest

    Sharing information is fine, sharing information meant to be purchased
    isn't, its against the law. Sharing even part of it is against the law
    the word is "accused"
    Thats not it, you just don't want to pay for the information you are
    required to purchase

    It doesn't matter how many pages it is, if its 16.66 bux thats the price
    You can purchase those from SIA themselves
     
  7. Juan Gomez

    Juan Gomez Guest

    Hello Mark:

    Double moral again, eh???

    Are you the same guy that was looking for unlocking panels details?
    Oh, yes "unlocking panels may save many techs here thousands of
    dollars in new panels that need not be replaced" as per your words,
    but why you are not using your same speech there: go and buy a new
    panel, this is the legal way. Remember that the panel firmware is
    copyrighted and reverse engineering is illegal also. And since the
    manufacturer will not tell you how to unlock the panel the only way to
    unlock it is some form of reverse engineering. Have you read the legal
    fineprint in the panel manuals?

    And yes, I understand, for you is only important what you need but you
    don't care about a possible dealer that lost an account. Perhaps you
    think that this is legal... or not as illegal as copying a copyrighted
    document.

    So unlocking panels is legal from your viewpoint because you need it,
    but everything that you don't need could be illegal?

    Please stop with the hypocrisy.

    If you don't yet discovered how to unlock DSC panels I can help you
    but all of us here must learn that this must be a two way sharing
    experience, if not nobody will get something useful from this group
    but the ones selling equipment. I'm not against them, but I prefer to
    use the group for sharing useful information for all of us. Remember,
    always remember, that perhaps you are looking for some other
    information that I could know about... Perhaps this information could
    cost you more than the SIA documents elsewhere... And some information
    like unlocking panels is not a standard you can buy for 100 bucks, I
    think that you already discovered that.

    So what do you think about my proposal: help me find the information
    and/or the documents I'm looking for and I will help you unlocking DSC
    panels and any other information I could help. My idea is to post it
    for everyone, as to start a new trend here. Tell me what do you think?

    Regards

    Juan G. Gomez
     
  8. RH.Campbell

    RH.Campbell Guest

    Sir, unlocking panels is NOT done by reverse engineering the alarm board,
    and is in no way doing anything illegal. There are a few people who do this
    and ...yes....they make a couple of bucks a board for providing a legitimate
    service, but so what ? The only people doing anything illegal as it relates
    to locking boards, are those companies locking an alarm board when it is
    fully paid for and fully owned by the customer.Where there is a legal demand
    for a service, someone will always fill it ! Such is life. Nor is it always
    a simple thing to do. And if you do unlock DSC boards, then you know as well
    as I that there is no single way to do it for all panels. One of the several
    different processes used even varies between different versions of the same
    chip for the same model of panel. Other makes of panels require other
    means...

    And yes, if I had the information you were looking for, I would be pleased
    to give it to you. However, I really don't think you will find anyone on
    this newsgroup with that level of technical expertise needed to assist you

    R.H.Campbell
    Home Security Metal Products
    Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
    www.homemetal.com
     
  9. Mark Leuck

    Mark Leuck Guest

    Nope wrong person
    Yes I have but again you have the wrong person, I never posted anything
    about unlocking panels
    I have copied documents, in fact I scanned hundreds of manuals a few years
    ago, I did ask permission first
    I don't need anyone unlocking panels
    What does this have to do with you wanting for free documents others have
    paid for?
    I don't need to know how to unlock DSC panels
    My idea is you purchase the documents legally instead of bugging others to
    give you an illegal copy for free
     
  10. G. Morgan

    G. Morgan Guest


    Then you filled in a couple of the slots with Monitronics defaults and
    put YOUR name as the copyright holder. Remember that site I found a
    couple years back that had them available for download (and brought it
    to your private attention)?

    Not that I give a "rat's derriere" © 2004 RLB (and stolen by me :) )
     
  11. Juan Gomez

    Juan Gomez Guest

    I think that this newsgroup is not sharing ideas nor information, only
    basic information is provided in order to sell, but nothing else.
    I don't have the official document, so I'm worried of missing some
    important detail, I have been decoding the SIA protocol from a DSC
    panel but I'm unsure of other possible details missing on DSC panel
    protocol.
    I understand you, there are so many after you that you must be worried
    of being catched with something wrong (not so wrong from my viewpoint
    but this is for another threat). That's fine. However I don't want to
    receive any document from your personal e-mail, any e-mail can be used
    if you want to help even anonymous ones.
    Yes, nothing special against you Robert, I don't like double moral and
    I see it permanently in this newsgroup.
    Again nothing special against you but for the newsgroup in general.
    There will never be a unified group, but if people stop losing the
    time fighting each other and we start trying to find similar interests
    and sharing interesting and useful things there will be a natural
    process that will change the attitude. I still believe in people.
    Yes, but the answer is normally related to make some business (i'm not
    against that), but never so much how to do it. Nobody told you how to
    unlock a panel...

    But nobody answers nothing new, nobody tells how this protocol works,
    after so many years of the newsgroup running you will not find a good
    complete answer regarding DSC keybus protocol specifications.
    Yes, but read back in the newsgroup and you will see that nobody told
    anything important about it. And almost no technical details. The ones
    that know something keeps the info for themselves.
    Lengthy threads always, but without real information most of the time,
    simple questions are answered for selling but nothing more.
    That is exactly the point. Most here don't know so much and because
    nobody is sharing information the knowledge of the group is not
    growing.
    And General Public License software and hardware started normally at
    newsgroups.
    Together is not working yet, I know but even for the online merchants
    it can help growing the sales. So if it can be of benefit for all,
    perhaps some projects could be done...
    I agree.
    I'm reading the newsgroup for a long time, not posted a lot because so
    much attacks and lack of good information.

    Lets change the newsgroup.
     
  12. G. Morgan

    G. Morgan Guest

    Someone named (Juan Gomez) Proclaimed on 30
    Jul 2004 16:20:13 -0700,

    Interesting typo.
    You're barking up the right tree.

    BTW, I don't have the technical data you are looking for. But if I did
    I would almost certainly share it. Most of the help that goes on in
    this newsgroup is by email you'll find. It's for two reasons. The
    first is that some of the information can be used to compromise a
    security system. The second, as was already pointed out to you, is
    that some unscrupulous members will republish the information on a
    private website and claim it as their own.


    Regards,
    Graham
     
  13. Mark Leuck

    Mark Leuck Guest

    I think that this newsgroup is not sharing ideas nor information, only
    basic information is provided in order to sell, but nothing else.[/QUOTE]

    Basic information yes, some do sell but most are here because we like what
    we do
    I'm sure somewhere SIA has a document for you waiting for you to purchase
    No double moral exists here, I'd say the same thing to anyone else in this
    group who asked for it
    Just that you do not believe enough to pay for a couple of documents
    Most likely because that is more technical than many of us know, I've dealt
    with the SIA protocol quite a bit, even worked with someone who was going to
    make a receiver test generator that would output SIA and CID tones, however
    I couldn't tell you the specifics of the format
    And if it will produce so many benefits then paying for a few documents to
    me sounds trivial
     
  14. Mark Leuck

    Mark Leuck Guest

    I never claimed to be the copyright holder of the documents
     
  15. Juan Gomez

    Juan Gomez Guest

    I respect your opinion but let me explain my point:

    - I am not against the people who unlock panels nor the ones who are
    doing reverse engineering, I also think that the ones unlocking panels
    are providing a necessary service. I only answered that to prove the
    double moral of Mr. Leuck.

    - Probably my method of unlocking panels and your method are not the
    same. As always there are probably several methods for the same thing.

    - We must agree that the manufacturer will not tell the information to
    anybody (even if there is a backdoor, I don't know nor believe there
    is any), that is for sure, so any information on how to unlock is from
    someone who studied the circuit, the software or something else and
    deducted a procedure.

    - If your method involves making something in the PCB or any component
    of it is because someone studied the circuit, or part of it and found
    a way to change something to unlock it. And looking how the system
    works, at least some part of it, is reverse engineering of this part
    of this circuit.

    - If your method involves making something using the keybus is because
    someone decoded or reverse engineered the keybus.

    - If your method involves software, trying to unlock panel using the
    PC-link or using a remote modem connection, for sure someone decoded
    the respective protocol, so they reverse engineered at least part of
    the system.

    The only way, I think, to unlock the panel without reverse engineering
    of any part of the panel and/or software is by brute force. Even
    attach something to the keyboard involves some form of reverse
    engineering of a part of the keyboard circuit.

    For example if you find a procedure to connect a cable and then do
    something as I found on this newsgroup, and it worked for you, is
    because someone by reverse engineering of at least part of the circuit
    found a solution. The procedure is not reverse engineering itself, but
    the instructions for doing it are done by someone who reverse
    engineered part of the circuit or the software.

    Don't even think there is a magical solution or that someone by
    mistake or by trying found the proper way, probability in this case is
    against simple solutions.

    And thank you for trying to help, even by telling me that you will
    share the information if you get it, I know that there are not so many
    with the technical expertise but there must be someone there with the
    info and I'm waiting from him before having to look other ways.

    Regards

    Juan G. Gomez
     
  16. Mark Leuck

    Mark Leuck Guest

    You continue to try and make excuses for wanted a free document that
    everyone else has to pay for, why is that?
     
  17. Frank Olson

    Frank Olson Guest

    <cough... splutter> There are *several* Google posts that will prove you
    wrong there, "friend"...


    What "27 years"?? Please tell us oh great Guru Bassnak...

    You received your Connecticut L-6 in 1983... Your L-5 in 1989... You
    opened your online store in 1996... and moved to Florida in 1999... You
    were *legally* licensed to install and service alarm systems for sixteen
    (16) years at the very most... Care to tell us how you come up with the
    number "27"??

    Unless I'm mistaken you're a newcomer.

    He more than likely knows more than you...
    What?? His license number?? Address?? So you can go "real life" with him
    when he finally realizes what a total asshole you are??

    "Pope Bass" mode "on"...
     
  18. anomynous

    anomynous Guest

    As posted numerous times, aren't the the same 'junk' that he sells?
     
  19. Mark Leuck

    Mark Leuck Guest

    At the very least ADT uses Lynx and Simon panels, mid would be Concord
    Express, DSC 1555/5010 and Ademco Vista-20P so the answer is yes
     
  20. anomynous

    anomynous Guest

    Unless he gets his source to have the stuff he sells manufactered with
    military specs components.
     
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