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secondary turn-on

Discussion in 'Electronic Design' started by Anthony C Smith, Dec 4, 2004.

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  1. Hi I am using the HIP4081 driving a H bridge with 4 STP24NF10 fets-
    Gate resistors are 10R in high side fets, 33R in low side, all drive R's
    have 1n4148 discharge diodes to speed turn off-
    circuit functions well -except for a 5n pulse on the low fet coincident with
    the turn on of the high fet- PCB is layed out to full guidelines from harris
    including laying gate traces with source feed on underside as plane to
    reduce the chance of this phenomina-

    any usefull ideas on reducing this- unit works well but this is obviously
    wasting power and heating the low side fet (although even without sink its
    mostly cold)


    Anthony C Smith
  2. Anthony C Smith wrote...
    Whoa! The HIP4081 can source/sink several amps to the FET gates,
    far too much for wimpy '4148 diodes. For fast turnoff you want
    to keep the sink-path voltage drops as low as possible; so use
    1n5817 Schottky diodes. Also, along the same vein of thought,
    never use logic-level FETs in an application like this. I made
    that mistake ... once.
  3. thanks for the input-
    Can you reccommend any decent fets for the job? switching frequency is
    384KHz, power is 200W into 1R @32V max, 22V min the H bridge drives a 40u
    common mode choke followed by a 3rd order butterworth filter at 50KHz
  4. I just checked the data- original design used RFP22N10 fairchild devices-
    this ST part was the nearest equivalent, but with better (lower) rds on and
    a lower gate charge- gate threshold voltage is the same 2-4V- the lower gate
    charge reduced the quiecent current of the amp- which is good as it has to
    run on batteries for backup.
    while searching I found a p fet optimised for Cgs/Cdg of 0.7 to minimise
    secondary turn on- has anyone used additional gate C to prevent this?
  5. Anthony C Smith wrote...
    I doubt that's your problem, not if you were to use Schottky pulldown
    diodes to control the off FET's anyway. Did you provide a delay using
    the '4081 HDEL and LDEL resistors (pins 8, 9) to prevent shoot-through?

  6. If the little pulses are large enough to cause dV/dt induced cross
    conduction (have you actually measured the cross conducting current, or have
    you merely observed small less than threshold blips appearing on the low
    side MOSFET gates?), then there are a number of things you might try.

    This document:

    Would have you believe the gate resistor paralleled with diode only provides
    incremental improvement over just the gate resistor alone (see figure 12 and
    related text in the document). From my personal experience with dV/dt
    induced cross conduction I would tend to agree. The document claims the
    circuit of figure 13 is superior. I tend to agree, but I think the best
    solution would be if MOSFET gate driver IC manufacturers provided two
    separate pins for each gate drive output. One pin for sinking current and
    one pin for sourcing current. That way you could use separate valued gate
    drive resistors for sinking and sourcing. It seems in most power MOSFET
    applications (especially true in H-bridges) turn on should be a fair amount
    slower than turn off for optimal performance.

    In addition to trying the circuitry of figure 13 you might also consider
    applying negative gate drive, or perhaps keeping the same circuit you are
    currently using (gate resistor in parallel with diode) but increasing the
    upper MOSFETs' gate resistor values. If cross conduction really is
    occurring, this can sometimes dramatically reduce total MOSFET heating even
    though it makes turn on slower. Of course, this isn't optimal from a
    performance standpoint since you probably want really fast turn on and turn
    off without any dV/dt induced cross conduction, but sometimes the added gate
    drive complexity may not be worth it (especially since fast turn on/off
    worsens the EMI situation).
  7. -snip-
    Using 68K for HDEL and LDEL- using the DSO I can see the delay so this is
    not the problem- I also increased the values to no avail- I am trying the
    diodes now
  8. No I have measured the current -5ns 50A flowing hence wanting to remove it!
    Thanks for the link most useful
    Thats why I have the different values on upper/lower halves of the bridge-
    this reduced ringing to virtually nothing and boosted performance
  9. Anthony C Smith wrote...
    How did you make this measurement (keep in mind L dI/dt)?
  10. It measures as a 0.75V peak pulse across a 0R015 non inductive sense
    resistor between the bottom of the bridge and true ground- both paths are
    less than 5mm long and over 5mm wide to avoid skin effect problems

  11. Your so called non-inductive sense resistor is still inductive. I'm not
    sure what you mean by 5ns 50A, but suppose a current rise time from 0-50A in
    5ns. This suggests a dI/dt of 10,000,000,000 Amps/second. So how much
    inductance would produce 0.75V with that kind of current ramp? Well,
    E=L*dI/dt, so in other words a mere 75 picoHenries would produce 0.75V with
    such a high current ramp rate. Given a vague rule of thumb of around 1nH
    per millimeter of trace length, it is very probable your "non-inductive"
    resistor has way more than 75pH of inductance (no matter its actual
    construction). Additionally it would be necessary for your scope probe to
    be connected impractically close to the resistor to avoid including 75pH of
    inductance in the measurement.

    So the basic idea is it is difficult to actually measure the cross
    conduction current with any reasonable expectations of accuracy. By the
    sounds of it you probably are getting cross conduction, but it is probably
    not as severe as you think it is.
  12. Thanks for the explaination- I am trying to fix a problem on a current board
    any patch ideas? this is driving me up the wall- I was trying to lower the
    THD and this spike is everywhere to some extent
  13. Terry Given

    Terry Given Guest

    Hi Anthony,

    A perhaps stupid question - is what you are seeing actually gate
    current? If possible, re-route the lower FET gatedrive such that gate
    charge and discharge current does not flow thru the sense resistor (easy
    to do if you have a separate power gnd on the smps chip, or a transistor

  14. legg

    legg Guest

    You could increase the upper fet gate current turn-on limiter. You
    obviously have incremental values to play with before you hit the same
    value used on the lower part.

    You haven't yet indicated whether the use of schottkies did anything
    to your measurements.

  15. Fritz Schlunder wrote...
    Thanks, Fritz, for making my point so eloquently. Anthony's inductance
    will no doubt be much more than 75pH, or even 10nH. For example, power
    MOSFET internal lead wiring is typically 5 to 10nH. If we assume 5nH
    total, a 0.75V drop implies a slow 150mA/ns current rate-of-change.
    It's not clear Anthony is seeing shoot-through currents; there are many
    other sources of impulse noise during switching that may be visible at
    the FET's source lead. For example, the high capacitive gate currents
    go through that path. One insidious severe noise source comes from fast
    current snap-off in the FET's substrate diode after its reverse-recovery
    time is finished. The primary way to tell this is happening is presence
    of severe switching noise. This situation will arise whenever the FET
    is off and its diode is made to conduct, say caused by flyback from the
    inductance in Anthony's output filter, "H bridge drives a 40u common mode
    choke followed by a 3rd order Butterworth filter at 50kHz." In extreme
    cases the source-voltage bounce can be severe enough to damage the FET by
    (internally) exceeding its gate-voltage limit for a few ns. This I know
    from sad experience, and from careful measurement with my superior probes
    (I mention probes, because its VERY easy to be mislead when taking such
    measurements, e.g. move the probe over to ground on the other side of the
    sense resistor and observe the zero-volt signal... and ditto elsewhere).
  16. Its definately secondary turn on, albiet maybe smaller than I first thought
    the above is not realy practical as its not a smps, its a discreet modulator
    driving the HIP for an audio amplifier and the sense resistor is part of the
    I limit system.
  17. I have been trying this and it appears to be working
    Strangely they did not improve things
    thanks for the input
  18. I think I am getting to the problem- not quite where I thought it was,
    the bridge is a phase shift type, with 0V in both bridges have a common mode
    switching frequency, and switch together, +v one bridge duty cycle
    increases, the other decreases,-v the opposite.
    By removing the load and applying a DC offset it appears that the pulse is
    comming from the oposite bridge half, and appears to be from the half under
    measurement when at 0V or small signal input.
    Got the T shirt on this one- all measurements are relative, using stored
    values and the same probe with the same reference ground for the probe, also
    using 100MHz DSO to capture as much as possible.
    I have had problems with this part and failures, so in this design I have
    implimented the 1R series resistor from mid point to BHS and a UF4003 from
    this point to BLO as noted in a Harris aps note
  19. legg

    legg Guest

    Whoa. You are driving a common-mode choke with a phase-modulated H
    bridge? The common mode fundamental output component of a phase
    modulator is extremely large.

    Are you sure you are not driving your sources and drains above and
    below their power rails? Is current really zero before the second
    conduction event?

  20. Terry Given

    Terry Given Guest

    OK, just a thought. But if you post that piece of the schematic, I'll
    show you how to re-route the gate current and still keep the current
    limit etc working.

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