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saltwater fuel

Discussion in 'Home Power and Microgeneration' started by Ben Turner, Jun 27, 2007.

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  1. Ben Turner

    Ben Turner Guest

    There's a story circulating in the news about John Kanzius. Story is
    claiming that he has a radio frequency generator that liberates oxygen and
    hydrogen from saltwater.

    Anyone know the frequency (frequencies?) involved? What about the
    transmitter design? Anyone??
     
  2. Eeyore

    Eeyore Guest

    The usual bollocks.

    Graham
     
  3. RW Salnick

    RW Salnick Guest

    Ben Turner brought forth on stone tablets:
    No doubt this is true. It has been possible for hundreds of years to
    "liberate" hydrogen and oxygen from sea water. Why is this news?

    bob
    s/v Eolian
    Seattle
     
  4. I have no idea whether that actually works or not, but even if it does,
    no energy can be gained in the process. Why? Because breaking the
    chemical bond between hydrogen and oxygen in a water molecule requires a
    specific amount of energy input. It doesn't matter how that energy is
    delivered, whether by electricity, heat, radiation, magnetism, what have
    you. Breaking that bond always uses the same energy as what was released
    when the bond was formed.

    It is like when you move something up a mountain. No matter if you move
    it slowly or quickly, by a winding road or a straight, whether you lift
    it by a crane or pull it behind oxen doesn't matter, it always takes the
    same expenditure of work to lift the same thing from one particular
    height to another.

    It is the same with chemical bonds. To split the bonds cost energy,
    exactly the same amount of energy that is released when the bond is
    formed. But that's just in theory. In practice it alway takes more
    energy to split chemical bonds, because such reactions are not 100%
    efficient. This radio frequency generator you mention will lose some
    energy as heat, first in the creation of the radio waves, second in
    causing heat movement in the water, energy that can not be recovered by
    re-combining the oxygen and the hydrogen.

    S.
     
  5. Eeyore

    Eeyore Guest

    Do tell more.

    Graham
     
  6. RW Salnick

    RW Salnick Guest

    Eeyore brought forth on stone tablets:
    Water (including the water in sea water) is dihydrogen monoxide. If you
    supply enough energy, the chemical bond between the hydrogen and the
    oxygen can be broken, producing ("liberating") hydrogen and oxygen. In
    theory, the amount of energy required is exactly equal to that of the
    chemical bond strength. In practice, more than this is required.
    Probably the most efficient method found over the centuries is the first
    one found: electrolysis. But others are possible, including perhaps
    even energy supplied by an RF field.

    Nevertheless, regardless of the method used, the best case scenario is
    that the amount of energy supplied has to be equivalent to the energy in
    the chemical bonds that are to be broken. Methods differ only in the
    amount of ADDITIONAL energy required due to inefficiencies and losses.

    Now, guess how much energy is obtained when the hydrogen is burned?
    When hydrogen and oxygen combine, the energy released is exactly the
    same (by definition!) as the energy required to break the bonds in the
    first place.

    bob
    s/v Eolian
    Seattle
     
  7. RW Salnick

    RW Salnick Guest

    brought forth on stone tablets:
    If you look at a water molecule, the individual atoms in it have
    vibrational modes. Think of 3 balls (2 lighter ones, and one heavier
    one), attached by springs (the chemical bonds). You can easily imagine
    several modes of vibration of this structure... if enough energy is
    supplied at one of the resonant frequencies of the structure, it is not
    hard to imagine that the vibration will become severe enough to break
    the bonds.

    bob
    s/v Eolian
    Seattle
     
  8. Yes, that's true, but lots of the energy will be lost simply heating the
    water and creating the microwaves. I think conventional electrolysis
    must be more efficient.

    S.
     
  9. RW Salnick

    RW Salnick Guest

    Sevenhundred Elves brought forth on stone tablets:

    Indeed.

    bob
     
  10. Eeyore

    Eeyore Guest

    On exactly what basis ?

    Graham
     
  11. Eeyore

    Eeyore Guest

    It makes no difference.

    Graham
     
  12. Eeyore

    Eeyore Guest

    Not actually very many such things. This is pretty much a 'popular myth' in
    fact.

    Because it's fundamentally ridiculous maybe ?

    Exceptions are astonishingly rare. I simply can't think of one in modern
    history. Why don't you give us an example ?

    No. Good science does not require one to abandon such basic concepts as the
    principle of conservation of energy and fundamental thermodynamics.

    What you're preaching (and it seems to be all too popular these days) is
    abondoning any form of science if its deemed inconvenient to a bunch of
    uneducated loonies with some wacky ideas..

    Burning water is about as ridiculous as it gets. It's 'burnt' already !

    Graham
     
  13. RW Salnick

    RW Salnick Guest

    brought forth on stone tablets:
    Actually, I *have* researched it. And I have two degrees in Chemical
    Engineering to go along with that.

    Have *you* thoroughly researched it? Are you willing to accept an idea
    without "thoroughly researching it"?

    bob
    s/v Eolian
    Seattle
     
  14. You

    You Guest

    Been a while since you did any Chemistry....

    it should read....

    4 NaCl + O2 + 2 H2O --> 4 NaOH + 2 Cl2 + H2

    All chemical formulas are integer based.....
     
  15. Eric Gisin

    Eric Gisin Guest

    Seems like you never did Math.
    Nitpicker.
     
  16. Steve Spence

    Steve Spence Guest

    LOL
     
  17. Eeyore

    Eeyore Guest

    STOP TOP POSTING !

    It makes you look like a jerk. AND causes confusion.

    Graham
     
  18. Steve Spence

    Steve Spence Guest

    The only jerk is you, and no one else is confused.
     
  19. You

    You Guest

    Who appointed you NetCop??????
     
  20. Eeyore

    Eeyore Guest

    Who made you an IDIOT ?
     
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