Maker Pro
Maker Pro

Rough pricing question

J

Joe Bramblett

Jan 1, 1970
0
I'm curious about a couple of pricing issues that have come up where I
work. (contract security - just trying to get an idea of whether the
client is getting decent estimates)

One is for card access - proximity readers, five for the basic package,
one door should be card entry and exit (with a backup exit method, of
course) and the others are card entry, button exit. The doors are pretty
much opposite ends of the building, about 100-150ft apart, the three
single readers are in a small group, (two within 16ft of each other,
and the third about 30ft away) and the console would be within 30ft of the
one with dual readers. Also, how much is reasonable per extra reader at
time of install and add-on after install? (figure an absolute maximum of
16 readers if system capacity is an issue)

Second is cameras - four pan/tilt/zoom with ~32x zoom, two more fixed for
vehicle entry points, and two fixed face cameras on call boxes by the
vehicle entry points. All exterior, and the four movable ones would be in
roughly a 150-200ft square, pole mounted for one, building mounted for the
others (all one building) about 20-25ft up. The four fixed would be near
two adjacent corners of the square. DVR/monitors/controls at another
corner, need storage for at least 21 days of video and a second monitor
only for the four fixed cameras roughly in the middle of the square. Fully
configurable motion sensing a bonus. Easy still dump to printer and video
dump to VHS a very nice bonus. Better still if you could break this down
per camera (with install costs) as there are a few other places we'd love
to have them.

Round numbers are fine...I'm just trying to establish that middle ground
between the guys who might be undercutting more than they could possibly
do it right for, and the ones who will BS the price up well past what it
might reasonably be.

Thanks
 
J

Joe Bramblett

Jan 1, 1970
0
1) What AHJ has the regualtions (if any) on the work you wish to be
performed? Is this job going to require submittals and O&M manuals?

As far as we can tell, the city hasn't really put much thought into
anything that doesn't call them, and the county just flat doesn't care.
What is
the existing door harware.

Nonexistent once the current provider is ditched. Think little holes
where equipment should be and wires yanked out of the walls.
2) The first door is read in and read out? There should be more to that
door bid, like at least an intercom to allow people to get let in when they
forget to read out; especially if there are other doors that are REX only?

Nothing so fancy; we just want it to deny access unless a valid cars is
used, and log each entry/exit. If someone wants to exit twelve times
without coming in, that's fine, just log it. Traffic is so heavy at that
door during shift changes, I doubt we could enforce a "don't hold it for
the next guy" policy from there with a shotgun.
Why have read in and read out? Is not even legal in most places to have that
as a sole means of egress.

Obviously there would be a big red button on the frame, preferably with
some sort of squealer to discourage its misuse, to let anyone out without
a card.
3) What front end? Who supplies the computer? Is this an add on upgrade or
new system? A maximum of 16 doors doesn't mean much. 16 doors of NStar
versus 16 doors of Keyscan, versus 16 doors of Software House represents a
huge difference in price just on brand and features.

Effectively new system, since everything is currently leased from a
vendor they want to ditch, and all we need is; if a valid card is
presented, open the door and log who/when, if a button is pushed, open the
door and maybe log when. Something that can display in realtime what card
is being used where and match it to a name would be preferred. Who
provides the computer depends on whether it costs more to have one
provided than for us to provide it, though interfacing with the existing
network (to allow HR or a supervisor to look at the records directly)
would be greatly preferred.
4) Fire alarm interface? Who pays? Customer or dealer?

Would it even be necessary with an exit button available?
5) Interface to visitor management and CCTV?

Not really; if there's a cheap way to do it, maybe, but as it stands, we
just have a couple of numbered visitor cards, and everybody else has to be
escorted at all times.
6) Pole maounted gear out of doors. Who saws the lot and pipes it? Or is
it RF? What kind of building mounts?

Not to sound like a broken record, but what's cheapest? If you charge
more for the outside cable runs than facilities maintenance can do them
for, then they'll do them. All the building mounts are currently U-bolted
to the supports on the corrugated metal.
7) To calculate storage for 21 days is not possible unless you also know
the CIF and frame rate and idle times etc.

Obviously that would depend on the use of each camera; the two sweeping
the parking lots would need a higher frame rate and resolution than the
two sets of face and gate cams. Figure our current settings are "crappy"
and "doesn't matter much since it's out of focus anyway."
8) Motion sensing? If you
don't have record on motion you will have lots of fun reviewing video.
No smart search? No analytics? Buy lots of Coke and popcorn.

As it stands, our smart search algorithm consists of either the guard
remembering when something happened, or guessing times until it's narrowed
down. Record on motion would only help with the rest of the system on
holidays, since the rest of the time there's a lot of milling around going
on all over the site. If we look at a camera and don't see something
moving, we generally assume it's failed.
9) No one
does VHS and dumps to printer on today's new systems. Why would you?

Because our local PD handles getting a floppy of JPGs by sending it home
with one of their officers to print them out. They only got a DVD player
at the station a couple years back amd the record/playback in their cars
is all VHS. If we need them to act on something, hardcopy stills and VHS
are the way to go.
10) Will this system have a badge printer?
Yes.

Round numbers?
$2500.00 per regular door of access.
$5500 for DVR
$2800 per PTZ
$A bunch for Labor

Presumably, since you don't list recurring costs, this is for purchase,
rather than lease? Either is acceptable, as long as we know what ballpark
we're in.
Sounds like you're client may be going for the lowest bid which will
equal lowest satisfaction, lowest performance and lowest quality.

Gee, you're an intuitive sort, aren't you? :)

Since we're the only ones who really use the camera system, we're trying
to give them some ideas of what could be improved when they do the
changeover without too much increase in price. Unfortunately the current
vendor promised them the moon, and delivered, for the most part, a
marginally useful system. Two cameras (the parking lot sweeps) do what
they're supposed to, while the rest are either badly positioned, out of
focus. or have apparently unresolvable problems with night mode.
Most
companies will negotiate a fixed price for well defined work. I don't
think our company would bid this if asked. There is too much work in bid
prep and we are too busy to waste time on maybe work when there is for
certain work that is waiting to be done.

Well, I suppose I could narrow a lot of it down, but we're a bit out of
the loop due to a site supervisor (our guy, not the client's) who "didn't
want to be bothered about none of that fancy junk" when they asked him
what the system would need to do. Now that he's seen what that attitude
got us, he's on board with the idea that we need to be more involved in
things like this, and we're trying to get back in the loop before it
happens again
I bet that may be the case
where you are as well.

No...the case where we are is that there's nobody within 65 miles that
deals with this stuff on a regular basis, so the client rep apparently
went with the first company that would send out a smooth-talking sales rep
who told him what was needed. As such, we have gate cameras mounted 15
feet up, practically directly over the callbox area, so we can clearly
see the roof of a vehicle waiting to get in, and for the annual lease
price, they could hire two more full time guards with handheld cameras and
binoculars.
 
J

J. Sloud

Jan 1, 1970
0
Obviously there would be a big red button on the frame, preferably with
some sort of squealer to discourage its misuse, to let anyone out without
a card.

Please read NFPA 101 regarding restricting egress. A "big red button"
and a "squealer" does not meet life safety code. Think of the
liability involved if you restict egress during an emergency and
someone gets hurt or killed. There is a very specific way that you
can provide a entry/exit reader on an agress door. If you are going
to be designing these systems, it's something you ought to brush up
on.
Would it even be necessary with an exit button available?

Yeah, it's absolutely required. If you plan on restricting agress,
you must connect to the building fire alarm system so that an alarm
shunts power at the locking device. I don't want to sound insulting,
but designs like this are best left to someone with the proper
training regarding applicable codes and industry best practices. I
know you're just looking for a check price, but with the growth in the
access control industry over the past several years, it seems that
there are a lot of people who are putting this stuff in without really
knowing what they're doing. I guess anybody with a checkbook and
ADI's phone number can lock somebody in a burning building.
 
R

Robert L Bass

Jan 1, 1970
0
It sounds like you have (or had) magnetic locks.
From what you describe it would be better to
have your maintenance guys install a delayed
egress rim alarmed panic exit device...

If there is a fire suppression system or a fire alarm system on the premises, the FM can require that delayed egress locks be
integrated with the system for immediate release if the alarm or the sprinklers are tripped.

Even though they may not care now, inspectors can and do change their attitude about things, especially after there's been a fatal
fire in the area. Best to select a device that can be interconnected just in case.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
941-866-1100
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>
 
J

Joe Bramblett

Jan 1, 1970
0
It sounds like you have (or had) magnetic locks. From what you describe it
would be better to have your maintenance guys install a delayed egress rim
alarmed panic exit device.

The problem there is that both doors are double doors, and have to be;
large stuff goes in and out from time to time, so both sides have to be
easily opened. (i.e. we can't lock one leaf for a rim lock to catch on)

Currently, one set has a big green "push to exit" button on the frame, and
the other has touch-sensitive crash bars for exit; that's the one we want
to be swipe-in/swipe-out. Both are magnetic locks, and the latter set is
metal-framed 2-pane glass doors.
A red button won't come close to doing the job
right.

Well, we can use a green button just like the other set. :)

What we need, though, is something easy to use, but hard to accidentally
set off. (My desk, the HR department, and a couple of executive offices
are within 30ft of that door, so frequent false alarms would *not* be a
good thing.)
It sounds like you have answered your own question. Was it "cheaper" to have
to rip the gear out you have and start over?

If it was just done wrong, it apparently would have been cheaper. From
what we can tell, it was done barely right and as cheaply as possible,
while charging for (and promising) the perfect, easily expandable system.
Mounts & Mounting Brackets
http://www.boschsecurity.us/index.aspx?prdctgroupid=73 look at them.
Understand how the right mount can improve what you're able to see.

Looks like their parapet mount is pretty similar to what we're using on
most of the cameras. The greater issue there is that they were put in at
bad angles; our executive lot is hidden behind the pole of the one camera
that would be able to see it, and another is mounted about eight inches
too low to see a prime potential trouble spot.
It would be helpful to know what you want features wise, and what
features you want to actually purchase for before shouting HOW MUCH?

Yes, it would. Part of my problem is that when they got this system, they
were taking the sales rep's word for it on what they needed, and we either
don't use or can't use a good percentage of the features it has, and can't
find any evidence that it has some of the features promised.

Thanks for the links; I'll print some of those spec sheets and go over
them this week.
 
J

Joe Bramblett

Jan 1, 1970
0
Locknetics Magforce 101+ maglocks on the doors with entry/ exit
readers.

http://www.locknetics.com/pdf/Electromagnetic Locks.pdf

Looks like we're headed in the right direction here. I notice that these
appear to be pretty much self-contained units, though, with a 150-key
capacity. Unless I'm missing something, they don't seem to list any I/O
for a monitoring system or for a separate card reader. Since the site is
about 800 employees total, the primary (swipe in/swipe out) door would
have to be able to handle that. 150 *might* handle the office staff at
the other double doors, and would certainly be plenty for the two single
doors, but both of those would have a greater need for realtime monitoring.
 
J

J. Sloud

Jan 1, 1970
0
The problem there is that both doors are double doors, and have to be;
large stuff goes in and out from time to time, so both sides have to be
easily opened. (i.e. we can't lock one leaf for a rim lock to catch on)

Currently, one set has a big green "push to exit" button on the frame, and
the other has touch-sensitive crash bars for exit; that's the one we want
to be swipe-in/swipe-out. Both are magnetic locks, and the latter set is
metal-framed 2-pane glass doors.

Locknetics Magforce 101+ maglocks on the doors with entry/ exit
readers.

http://www.locknetics.com/pdf/Electromagnetic Locks.pdf
 
J

J. Sloud

Jan 1, 1970
0
Looks like we're headed in the right direction here. I notice that these
appear to be pretty much self-contained units, though, with a 150-key
capacity. Unless I'm missing something, they don't seem to list any I/O
for a monitoring system or for a separate card reader. Since the site is
about 800 employees total, the primary (swipe in/swipe out) door would
have to be able to handle that. 150 *might* handle the office staff at
the other double doors, and would certainly be plenty for the two single
doors, but both of those would have a greater need for realtime monitoring.

They can be configured to be used as "regular" maglocks on most any
access control system. They've got a bunch of different options for
each model lock. We use them a lot to keep unauthorized people from
going outside a building into a protected area. Think airport
terminal dumping into a controlled outdoor area. If there is a life
threatening emergency, however, people must be able to get out.
 
D

Doug

Jan 1, 1970
0
I think he is from a contract security/guard service that gets stuck using
whatever the customer gets talked into buying

Doug
 
J

Joe Bramblett

Jan 1, 1970
0
That makes even more sense.

Exactly; and that gives me an even higher degree of hassle, since we need
something that will meet our needs and the client's while remaining within
what the client is willing to pay.

It beats the other site I sometimes fill in at though; they have 16
buildings on about 40 acres, protected on three sides by a barbed wire
fence, and on the fourth by chain link, but they won't even spring for
a few WalMart cameras because they have a guard at the front gate
(tasked with manning a phone and the gate itself, so patrols are limited)
who should be able to magically know if someone is getting on the property
elsewhere.
 
Top