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RF coupling with multiple capacitors

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John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
Thanks for the nice hack.

In pic 348x3 the teflon looks pretty solid.

The transmission line conductor is surrounded by plastic... the
insulator is actually a number of tubular sections, some solid and
some split. The fine wire, wound around the ferrite/foam (?) stuff, is
just soldered to the line.
In 353x1 I guess we are looking at the blocking cap?

Yup. It's just roughly midway along the main line, with the dielectric
split there to allow access.
Hard to figure how this relates to the other pic. There seems to be some
slices to the left side of the pic. Wondering how the bias connects to
the coax line. Is it shown (did I miss it).

I'll add a couple more pics.
I think I almost ordered one of these or something similar on eBay
recently. Maybe you outbid me.


I got this one on ebay, but haven't bid on any more lately.

I'm thinking you could make a pretty decent bias tee on a small pcb,
without all this machining.

John
 
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John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
Depends for what. This was a satellite telecom system, with a truly
nasty spurious response spec--5 Hz RMS in a 5-100 Hz BW around a 14 GHz
carrier, plus equally unpleasant stuff further out. The 14 GHz had to
be tunable in 1 MHz steps, and was derived from a 120X multiplier on a
115 MHz reference, which was one of the boards I was designing. Made
for interesting PLL work, especially since this was well before DDSes.

Gave me a useful postgraduate course in shielding and bypassing.

Cheers,

Phil Hobbs


There's a neat chapter in Jim Williams' first "Analog Design"
collection (1991 version, chapter 26) about the ultimately-failed
design of a frequency synthesizer system, with lots of groveling
around with nanovolt VCO pertubations, shot noise, microphonics, fun
things like that. If you haven't seen it yet, I suspect you'd find it
amusing. It's sort of like coming at DDS from the wrong direction.

John
 
P

Phil Hobbs

Jan 1, 1970
0
John said:
There's a neat chapter in Jim Williams' first "Analog Design"
collection (1991 version, chapter 26) about the ultimately-failed
design of a frequency synthesizer system, with lots of groveling
around with nanovolt VCO pertubations, shot noise, microphonics, fun
things like that. If you haven't seen it yet, I suspect you'd find it
amusing. It's sort of like coming at DDS from the wrong direction.

I remember reading it--that was the Dana Labs Digiphase. They really
did make it work, eventually, and sold a few but then the company went
down the tubes....

My situation wasn't quite that bad, thank heavens--I did get it to work
with a funky decimal rate-multiplier driven pulse swallowing counter.

The nasty rate-multiplier jitter is much less of a problem when it's in
the lowest decades of the counter that runs the pulse-swallowing line.
In this case, two cascaded CD4527 rate multipliers drove the carry input
of a 74LS190 presettable down counter, which drove the modulus control
of a Motorola 10/11 ECL prescaler whose number I forget.

Worked great, eventually--you could set the 14 GHz oscillator frequency
directly on BCD dip switches and everything. I sure wasn't going to
make that 1/f noise spec with an 8.333 kHz comparison frequency--the FM
noise would have multiplied up by 124 dB.

I know a few stories like that Dana Labs one, which is one of the
reasons I wanted to work for IBM Research--they pay me to go play in my
laboratory, and have done for 18 years now. (Please, nobody here wise
them up.) ;-)

Management commitment that will survive failure is rare and precious.

Cheers,

Phil Hobbs
 
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Joel Kolstad

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Jeroen,

Jeroen Belleman said:
Joel said:
[...] (the fact that they use the same ESL for 0402 and 0603 packages
concerns me a little, however!)
Why should it? They are both the same l/w ration, so I'd expect
ESL to be about the same, just under a nH.

Well, by that argument, a 1206 should have the same ESL too, right? And I'm
pretty sure most people would agree that a 1206 has a measurably greater ESL
than an 0402. I do see your point though; I can readily imagine that 0603 and
0402 are starting to get close enough in size that their ESLs differ by less
than the measurement certainty...
If the capacitor is
used for RF interstage coupling, it's part of a transmission
line and its ESL is probably about the same as the length
of transmission line it replaces.

For a single layer capacitor that's roughly the same width as the transmission
line it replaces, I'd agree with you. For a multi-layer capacitor, however, I
submit that it can be noticeably (e.g. 4x) less.

Thanks for the input,
---Joel
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
If you have the $750 loose, buy it. A genuine piece of engineering history.

Cheers,

Phil Hobbs

And now you can do most of that on a few square inches of pcb with a
$5 DDS chip.

John
 
S

Scott Newell

Jan 1, 1970
0
Phil said:
If you have the $750 loose, buy it. A genuine piece of engineering history.

Space is tight in the museum these days, so I'll pass. It doesn't
look at all like I'd mentally pictured it from the description in
"Analog Circuit Design".

I wish Jim Williams would put out another analog storybook. I'll
bet that you, Larkin, and Thompson (among others here) could come
up with some good material (hint, hint).
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
Yes please, that'd be interesting. But could you put in a corner of
a web site please? I have no a.b.s.e. here.

Thanks,
Jeroen Belleman


Try this:

ftp://ftp.highlandtechnology.com/tee.zip

John
 
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Phil Hobbs

Jan 1, 1970
0
Scott said:
I wish Jim Williams would put out another analog storybook. I'll
bet that you, Larkin, and Thompson (among others here) could come
up with some good material (hint, hint).

Well, I don't know if we could top the one with the dog holding the
soldering iron...

But I did publish a war story of a somewhat similar kind, a couple of
years ago in the Optical Society of America's house organ:
http://users.bestweb.net/~hobbs/footprints/fpwaropn.pdf. (This web site
is going to go away soonish, but it'll still be available via my
redirector, http://www.electrooptical.net.)

I've been trying to get some of my electrooptical colleagues to do write
similar pieces, but to little avail.

Cheers,

Phil Hobbs
 
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Jeroen Belleman

Jan 1, 1970
0
Joel said:
[...] (the fact that they use the same ESL for 0402 and 0603 packages
concerns me a little, however!)

Why should it? They are both the same l/w ration, so I'd expect
ESL to be about the same, just under a nH.


Well, by that argument, a 1206 should have the same ESL too, right?

Yes indeed. About 1nH. And a measurement using that nice HP8753D here
confirmed that nicely.

Jeroen Belleman
 
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Jeroen Belleman

Jan 1, 1970
0
John said:
ftp://ftp.highlandtechnology.com/tee.zip

Splendid. Instructive too. There's more to bias tees than
meets the eye, clearly.

Thanks,
Jeroen Belleman
 
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