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Resolver motor commutation (motor guru help)

Discussion in 'Electronic Design' started by mook Johnson, Sep 29, 2007.

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  1. mook Johnson

    mook Johnson Guest

    I have a 6 pole motor that will be spinning at 6000 RPM (inverter frequency
    = 300 Hz). The motor has a 6 pole resolver that has a 10Khz reference
    frequency. A new angle will be computed every 100uS.

    300Hz = a period of 3.333mS
    If the resolver is sampled at 100uS there will be 33.3 updates during one
    electricl cycle or every 10.8 degrees.

    Is this sufficient for spinning a motor in constant speed control? Assume
    slow moving torque loads.

    What would be the minimum sample rate for the resolver to maintain control
    of the motor?
    something like 10 samples/cycle?
  2. Tim Wescott

    Tim Wescott Guest

    If the motor (I assume it's brushless) is going at an exactly steady speed,
    with an exactly steady torque, you never need to sample the resolver at
    all -- you just need to drive it with what you have been driving it with
    (remember it's already going a steady speed) forever.

    More important that asking what rate you need to sample your resolver at
    vs. the speed of the motor, you should be asking what rate you need to
    sample your resolver at vs. the bandwidth of the control loop, and the
    bandwidth of any speed disturbances you expect to see on the motor. Taken
    that way, you can get away with sampling the resolver at quite low rates,
    although sampling close to or below 2x your inverter frequency will become

    For me, if this were a short-run or low volume product I'd go ahead and
    sample at 10kHz and make sure I was buying a processor (you are doing this
    with a processor, yes?) that could handle the math. One month's worth of
    a full-time engineer will buy several hundred $25 processors, after all.

    OTOH, if you're talking about something that's going into thousands of
    units a year, then sample at 600Hz + 4x (control loop bandwidth). You'll
    spend up to a man-month tearing your hair out over algorithms, but you'll
    save $$ on the processor, so it'll work out.

    Tim Wescott
    Control systems and communications consulting

    Need to learn how to apply control theory in your embedded system?
    "Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" by Tim Wescott
  3. John Larkin

    John Larkin Guest

    If it's an induction motor driven at a constant frequency, what's to
    control? Inverter frequency?

    At 6 grand, the motor will have a lot of inertia. You could close a
    pretty tight control loop at 100 samples per second. Any more is

  4. mook Johnson

    mook Johnson Guest

    It's a Permenant magnet AC motor with sinuoidal BEMF. It's about 1.7"
    diameter x 6" long, so the intertia isn't extremely high but is

    I'm doing this with a 100MIPs DSP so I have plenty of processing power. The
    resolver angle calculated every 100uS determines the phase angle of the
    three output voltage waveforms. The calculated angle fed into the inv Park /
    inv Clark transforms to determine the three phase output voltage levels. So
    each time the resolver is read it directly controls the output volage to
    thet motor.
  5. Fred Abse

    Fred Abse Guest

    For commutation, you need to establish absolute position.

    Most, if not all, commercial designs using PM 3-phase motors use encoders,
    rather than resolvers, with a 4-bit Gray code commutation signal,repeated
    for each pole pair, and separate quadrature plus one-revolution pulse
    signals for velocity/position. There are lots of encoders on the market,
    which are relatively cheap. That does away with the need for stable
    excitation, too.

    Resolvers, at least rotary ones are uncommon, now. Linear ones are still
    sometimes used for secondary position feedback in precision systems.
    Rotary resolvers used to be used mainly with DC motors having analog

    IOW, the world does the job with 16 discrete steps per pole pair. You
    should be able to get an idea of how fast you need to sample from that.
  6. Mook Johnson

    Mook Johnson Guest

    So the 4 bit encoders provide 16 postion steps within one electrical cycle
    of the motor. My application with resolvers allows me to sample the
    position 33.3 times per cycle. So I chould be good. Correct?

    If I take 16 resolver samples per electrical cycle, them the max speed I
    could achieve with that setp (assuming sufficient bus voltage) is a little
    over 12K RPM. Correct?


    All of the encoders I had seen were 10bit 1024 step type which was way
    beyond what I could achieve.
  7. Genome

    Genome Guest

    You.... Wescott are some sort of old whore pedalling some sad version
    of your perception of shite in the hope of a bit of money.

    I'd rather buy the Nigger from NZ a pint and watch the All Blacks
    Stuff France than pay you a cent for your concept of PID insultancy.

    No offense mate, I just think you are some sort of twat.

  8. Jamie

    Jamie Guest

    If you're looking for absolute encoders?, look at Gray code units.
    Those can give you precise position with in it's own resolution.
    most common units are 4 wire out, this gives you 16 combinations of
    data that you can use to know exactly where the rotor is.
    We have a brushless DC motors at work using this method.
  9. Mook Johnson

    Mook Johnson Guest

    You're correct it is a "brushless" 3 phase PMAC motor with sinusoidal BEMF.

    The torque is not constant but doesn't move extremely fast(something like
    1Hz bw.)

    I'm using a 100MIPs processor with a 120nS A2D sample rate so I should have
    plenty of processor for this task. The resolver angle is used to determine
    the necessary phase angle of the inverter output voltage to keep the motor
    turning. This requires several updates during the electrical cycle to
    create a clean sinusoidal output for the motor. Since the RPM of motor
    varies depending on the setpoint (0 - 6000RPM) and the resolver reference
    frequency is fixed, the faster the motor turns, the fewer samples you get
    for each electrical cycle of the motor.

    I'm wondering what would be the minimum number of samples / cycle to
    maintain a sinusuodal shaped phase currents?

    I do know that a brushless DC motor operates with only 6 commutation points
    to turn the motor with trapiziodal drive. Others in this discussion have
    suggested that 16 points is what the industry uses via gray code encoders.
  10. Fred Abse

    Fred Abse Guest

    You still won't have *absolute* position detection, relative to a pole
    pair. The control system needs to know where the rotor is, relative to the
    stator, immediately on startup, with the rotor still stationary. Resolvers
    don't do that.
    You haven't said what the characteristics of the motor are, but 12000 RPM
    seems a little optimistic. Most AC servo motors weigh in at 2000 - 3000
    RPM, maximum.

    A little more knowledge of the intended application might help. It may be
    that you don't need controllable positioning, just speed and torque, in
    which case you'd be better off with an induction motor. A resolver *would*
    work with that.
    I've never seen a 10 bit encoder on a servo. They're almost invariably 4
    bit for commutation, plus 2 quadrature pulse channels at 2000, 2048,
    3000, etc. etc, pulses per rev. and a third channel giving one pulse per
    rev. There must be a couple dozen firms out there making them.
  11. Mook Johnson

    Mook Johnson Guest

    Yes we measure the resolver angle with a constant current DC flowing through
    the phases at startup. This gives us the offset between the resolver
    position and the BEMF.
    12,000 RPM was a theoretical number, we'll be running at 6000RPM for this
    application. We don't need position control of the motor beyond what is
    need to commutate it. We do need the small size and power provided by a
    rare earth magnet PMSM vs an induction motor. We require a small diameter
    motor <2". The induction motor quote was 50% longer for the same
    performance as the PMSM. Total power will be 1HP.
  12. Fred Abse

    Fred Abse Guest

    If I read you right, that means you don't mind a bit of uncontrolled
    movement at startup. I was assuming this was a servo, where you'd want the
    motor to stay stationary until commanded


    I'd still have gone for an encoder, though, if only to do away with the
    need for excitation.
  13. Guest

    Resolvers do do that. Incremental encoders dont.
    Even the crappiest ones do 4000, not many go above 6000.

    Once again your way off, stick to what you know about.
  14. Fred Abse

    Fred Abse Guest

    Most CNC axis drives 2000RPM
  15. Guest

    That maybe so but it has nothing to do with the typical specification
    for a brushless servo motor.
  16. Fred Abse

    Fred Abse Guest

    If you discount the really tiny stuff, it's a major slice of the market.
  17. Guest

    I dont know what point that statement is supposed to be making.
  18. Fred Abse

    Fred Abse Guest

    You used the word "typical".
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