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Replacing tubes with FET/transistor cascodes

H

Homer J Simpson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Any info out there on replacing tubes with FET/transistor cascodes - a FET
for input and a high voltage transistor for output?
 
T

Tim Wescott

Jan 1, 1970
0
Homer said:
Any info out there on replacing tubes with FET/transistor cascodes - a FET
for input and a high voltage transistor for output?
It's been tried, never with great success. In spite of the old saw that
"A FET looks like a vacuum tube" it doesn't, really -- the bias is
different, the impedances are way lower, the heater connection really
sucks in a series string, etc.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Posting from Google? See http://cfaj.freeshell.org/google/

"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" came out in April.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Homer said:
Any info out there on replacing tubes with FET/transistor cascodes - a FET
for input and a high voltage transistor for output?

I've been chewing it over. What have you in mind ?

Many moons ago you could get FETRONS btw. Same idea.

Graham
 
H

Homer J Simpson

Jan 1, 1970
0
I've been chewing it over. What have you in mind ?

A large collection of old test equipment all with a multitude of different
vacuum tubes.
Many moons ago you could get FETRONS btw. Same idea.

ISTR an article in Wireless World (UK) along those lines.


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| | / _` | '_ ` _ \ | __ |/ _ \| '_ ` _ \ / _ \ '__|
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|_____| \__,_|_| |_| |_| |_| |_|\___/|_| |_| |_|\___|_|
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___ | |_ | |_) | ___ _ __ __ _
/ _ \| _| | _ < / _ \| '__/ _` |
| (_) | | | |_) | (_) | | | (_| |_
\___/|_| |____/ \___/|_| \__, (_)
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E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Homer said:
A large collection of old test equipment all with a multitude of different
vacuum tubes.


ISTR an article in Wireless World (UK) along those lines.

A long time ago I'm sure !

So, had you looked into it at all ?

Graham
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
I've been chewing it over. What have you in mind ?

Many moons ago you could get FETRONS btw. Same idea.

Graham

The Supertex depletion-mode n-ch mosfets are practically tubes. They
make great current limiters, too.

John
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
John said:
The Supertex depletion-mode n-ch mosfets are practically tubes. They
make great current limiters, too.

Do they have the same 'square law' characteristic that tubes and jfets are
supposed to share ?

Graham
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
Do they have the same 'square law' characteristic that tubes and jfets are
supposed to share ?

Dunno... you could look them up! We use them at Idss, as high-voltage
current limiters, so we don't care about the transfer curve.

John
 
H

Homer J Simpson

Jan 1, 1970
0
A long time ago I'm sure !

So, had you looked into it at all ?

I came across a reference to the article but can't track down a copy.


--
_____ _ _
|_ _| | | | |
| | __ _ _ __ ___ | |__| | ___ _ __ ___ ___ _ __
| | / _` | '_ ` _ \ | __ |/ _ \| '_ ` _ \ / _ \ '__|
_| |_ | (_| | | | | | | | | | | (_) | | | | | | __/ |
|_____| \__,_|_| |_| |_| |_| |_|\___/|_| |_| |_|\___|_|
__ ____
/ _| | _ \
___ | |_ | |_) | ___ _ __ __ _
/ _ \| _| | _ < / _ \| '__/ _` |
| (_) | | | |_) | (_) | | | (_| |_
\___/|_| |____/ \___/|_| \__, (_)
__/ |
|___/
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
John said:
Dunno... you could look them up!

I dare say a Spice model might cast some light on that.

We use them at Idss, as high-voltage
current limiters, so we don't care about the transfer curve.

I suspected as much but thought you might just know anyway.

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Homer said:
I came across a reference to the article but can't track down a copy.

If you have the date I might be able to help !

Graham
 
T

Tim Shoppa

Jan 1, 1970
0
Homer said:
Any info out there on replacing tubes with FET/transistor cascodes - a FET
for input and a high voltage transistor for output?

Well, there are a LOT of different tubes out there with a lot of
different characteristics and applications.

If you have the ability to go in and rework the design to give you all
the bias sources you want then it's not hard at all.

If you want a "drop in" replacement that works in a certain application
then it's not too awful but may require some creative thinking to
re-bias things where you really want them.

To be pessimistic, exactly reproducing every characteristic of a given
tube with solid state stuff isn't trivial. But most tubes are only used
over a small fairly linear portion of their characteristic range, they
are often used in circuits that self-adjust their bias, and even when
they aren't (e.g. AGC action) the exact details are often smooshed into
words ("sharp-cutoff" vs "remote cutoff") that except for the exponents
are self-adjusting as well!

See Motorola application note AN211A (just google for "AN211A") figure
21 for some optimistic/most favorable examples.

Tim.
 
W

Winfield Hill

Jan 1, 1970
0
Eeyore wrote...
I dare say a Spice model might cast some light on that.

That's doubtful, usually the common MOSFET models fail in the
sub-threshold region.
I suspected as much but thought you might just know anyway.

I use the Supertex depletion-mode MOSFETs in the linear region
all the time, and have taken careful bench measurements over
many orders of drain current. At currents below say Idss/25,
they exactly follow the theory we outline and plot in AoE,
with an exponential voltage-current relationship, just like
a BJT transistor, but with a somewhat lower slope (about 1/2
to 1/5 the transconductance). At higher currents, near Idss,
they have a square-law characteristic, like tubes, but you
can rarely use individual FETs in this region for continuous
linear operation, because for MOSFETs this characteristic is
at high currents, where Pd = Id * Vd means you have excessive
power dissipation. Now, if you use a small device, with low
Idss, just above where you want to operate, and marry it with
a cascode power MOSFET, to keep Vd down, and provide a large
heatsink, ahem, that's a FETRON. Compare Teledyne's TS-12AT7
to a tube, http://www2.famille.ne.jp/~teddy/datalib/fetron.htm
 
T

Tim Shoppa

Jan 1, 1970
0
Homer said:
A large collection of old test equipment all with a multitude of different
vacuum tubes.

In which case my reference to AN211A may not have been so helpful.

Replacement in classic RF/IF/AF stages where exact gain isn't picky and
the class-A bias is mostly self-adjusting (the examples in AN211A) is
the easy thing.

Using them in test or industrial equipment may be entirely different.
It's extremely unlikely that you'll be able to do a simple drop-in
replacement in a DC regulator circuit or in a multivibrator or in a
sweep generator, for example. It's not that semiconductors are
incapable of any of those jobs it's just that those circuits generally
depend on cutoff, saturation, and DC characteristics that are not
self-adjusting, and substitutions of the active component may very well
require changes in the circuit to get it to do anything at all.

Tubes aren't exactly hard to come by these days... some are more common
than others, but if you do a search on the web you WILL find what
you're looking for.

Tim.
 
A

Ancient_Hacker

Jan 1, 1970
0
Homer said:
Any info out there on replacing tubes with FET/transistor cascodes - a FET
for input and a high voltage transistor for output?

I've looked into that myself, and things look pretty dismal.

For really low frequency use, like non-picky audio, you can probably
fake it with a FET and a transistor.

You can't use high-voltage MOSFETS, they have really high input
capacitance Tens to hundreds of times higher than tubes.

And the transconductances are not too hot, and extremely variable. And
you can't find 400-volt transistors with frequency response above a few
megahertz.

You'd need a carefully-crafted bootstrapped input stage to minimize the
input capacitance, some low-cap diodes to mimic the positive-grid
region (for schmitt-triggers and multivibrators), then about ten
well-matched 45 volt transistors in series. A complex and ugly
arrangement.

-------

On the other hand, the old Collins R-392A radio, which was designed to
run with 24 volts on the tubes, can be retrofitted with MOSFETS, just
by directly plugging them into all the pentode sockets. The triodes
can be replaced with most any silicon NPN transistor. Weird but true.
 
C

colin

Jan 1, 1970
0
Homer J Simpson said:
Any info out there on replacing tubes with FET/transistor cascodes - a FET
for input and a high voltage transistor for output?

Ive replaced a couple of tubes directly with just a high voltage T0220
mosfet,
these were large expensive high current tubes but just used for power supply
regulation,
(the 200v rail got shorted and you could see the wire conections inside the
tube had fused !)
and so mosfet was an ideal replacement.

Colin =^.^=
 
H

Homer J Simpson

Jan 1, 1970
0
See Motorola application note AN211A (just google for "AN211A") figure
21 for some optimistic/most favorable examples.

Got it thanks.

--
_____ _ _
|_ _| | | | |
| | __ _ _ __ ___ | |__| | ___ _ __ ___ ___ _ __
| | / _` | '_ ` _ \ | __ |/ _ \| '_ ` _ \ / _ \ '__|
_| |_ | (_| | | | | | | | | | | (_) | | | | | | __/ |
|_____| \__,_|_| |_| |_| |_| |_|\___/|_| |_| |_|\___|_|
__ ____
/ _| | _ \
___ | |_ | |_) | ___ _ __ __ _
/ _ \| _| | _ < / _ \| '__/ _` |
| (_) | | | |_) | (_) | | | (_| |_
\___/|_| |____/ \___/|_| \__, (_)
__/ |
|___/











....

....
 
M

Michael Black

Jan 1, 1970
0
Tim Shoppa" ([email protected]) said:
In which case my reference to AN211A may not have been so helpful.

Replacement in classic RF/IF/AF stages where exact gain isn't picky and
the class-A bias is mostly self-adjusting (the examples in AN211A) is
the easy thing.
IN the old days, the replacements seemed to take three forms.

Creating general replacements that plugged in without any fuss.
The Fetrons that someone mentioned were this type, but of course
only a handful of types were made, to replace a handful of extremely
common tubes. And I recall a detailed letter in QST about them, how
they worked well in some applications (I seem to recall limiters
in two-way FM receivers) but less well in more linear applications.
The exact details may be garbled, but there did seem to be limitations
of even such a general replacement.

More common were trying to build to the specific stage. So you look
at the circuitry around it, and then try to create somethng that fit
in that socket that worked with the surrounding circuitry. This required
more fussing, but seemed to be a better choice. I seem to recall that
the articles I saw often did adjust external resistors to some extent.

I once solid-stated a surplus Collins PTO by soldering an FET in place
across the tube socket, and running it off low voltage, and it was fine
(though it was a 1 to 1.5MHz PTO so was pretty simple). I don't think
I had to change anything else, but note I wasn't using the PTO in
the original piece of equipment.

Then there were the conversions where the chassis and tuned circuits
and variable capacitors (or whatever) were basically just the foundation
of a new project. It got the hard work out of the way, but of course
didn't leave it intact. On the other hand, it was a way of improving
equipment that had limitations. In that sort of conversion, the audio
amplifier would be tossed out, and replaced with an audio IC amplifier.
THe IF strip might be seen more like a function, and then something suitable
could replace it. The thing about this was you could tamper with external
components, so if that plate resistor was too high for whatever you were
doing, you'd just replace it.

But of course, most of this took place in the late sixties and by the
end of the seventies it had faded. At the time, the equipment was
still seen as functional, but the hope of solid state made people want
to modify them, or maybe it was just for the sake of doing it. The
equipment was often getting pretty old, as the seventies progressed
it was all getting replaced with equipment that was not only solid
state (even using those new-fangled ICs) but that switch to solid
state allowed for a leap forward in functionality. A tube shortwave
receiver with single conversion to 455KHz would often still suffer
from image problems, whether the tubes were left in there or replaced
with transistors, but a more modern receiver might have moved to
a single conversion to an HF IF, or tossed in lots of features that
would require extensive work to add to the old receiver.

Michael
 
B

Brad Albing

Jan 1, 1970
0
Tim Shoppa wrote:

[snip]
See Motorola application note AN211A (just google for "AN211A") figure
21 for some optimistic/most favorable examples.

Oh, BTW, I love the way Freescale has reworked all the old Mot. data
sheets and app-notes. It looks like they paid some junior high school
kids to take a rubber stamp and stamp their name/URL over the top of
"Motorola." Nothin' but high class for these guys....

BA
 
T

Tim Shoppa

Jan 1, 1970
0
Brad said:
Tim Shoppa wrote:

[snip]
See Motorola application note AN211A (just google for "AN211A") figure
21 for some optimistic/most favorable examples.

Oh, BTW, I love the way Freescale has reworked all the old Mot. data
sheets and app-notes. It looks like they paid some junior high school
kids to take a rubber stamp and stamp their name/URL over the top of
"Motorola." Nothin' but high class for these guys....

Well, all the remaining guys have data sheets that show heritage back
through several generations of ownership. I still like the CD4000
series datasheets at TI's website where you can clearly see the
Harris/Intersil lineage!

And every time I look at AN211A (every couple of years for the past
couple of decades) I get completely thrown for a loop by that AND gate
in Figure 22 making -130V :).

Tim.
 
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