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Replacement picture tube out of warranty?

Discussion in 'Electronic Repair' started by Fraser, Dec 24, 2003.

  1. Not really, 625 line PAL in 16:9 may not be a good as IMAX but it is
    good enough up to the size of realistic size home TVs. Certainly a
    person with average eyesight in an average room will have a more
    natural view that the old 4:3 TV sets that half-brain thinks are
    better.
     
  2. You do talk some rubbish - but the above really is setting new
    standards.
     
  3. Fraser

    Fraser Guest

    I watch films in the aspect ratio they were made in, period. You wouldn't
    take the Mona Lisa and cut some of it out to fit a nice frame you happen to
    have available. And as TV generally sucks, most of my TV watching is movies.
    So I have a widescreen TV. Must I apologise for that to you?

    Nonsense, learn some film history. Widescreen came about as the movie
    industries counter to television, which was affecting it's income. They were
    still showing news reels etc at the time, which TV negated the need for, and
    in many ways surpassed. Some directors didn't take to it for a long time,
    Stanley Kubrik for example. Mind you, most of his films were also made in
    mono sound!!

    No, this time learn some DVD history and consumer electronics marketing. The
    first lot of people to buy DVD were the enthusiasts. We wanted digital
    surround, multiple audio tracks, all that sort of thing. To be a success,
    you have to get their buy in, then capture the public. Laser disk never got
    popular with the enthusiasts, so it died. My player cost £750 at the time,
    but that was with being chipped etc. Most of us want widescreen, so that's
    the way it was. Releases got slated in all the review mags if they were
    masked down to 4:3. DVDs were intended to be the "perfect" delivery
    mechanism for movies, and cutting parts of the movie out didn't fit into
    that picture.

    Who exactly is doing this brainwashing anyway? :) Does your tinfoil hat
    protect you?


    Which is very true. Look at a blank wall and see how much of it you can see
    without moving your eyes. Not much in the up & down department, but you've
    got around 120 degrees (a lot) of horizontal view. The widest common format,
    2.35:1, is a lot closer to this than TVs traditional 4:3. For framing
    "normal" images, such as landscapes, groups of people, text/signs,
    widescreen is more natural. Just look at the unusual ways people stand in
    4:3 media, they usually much closer than normal people are in day-to-day
    life. It's unnatural.

    Fraser.
     
  4. Fraser

    Fraser Guest

    Things are very different in the UK for this then, we get 6 years provided
    the fault isn't "normal wear and tear" apparently.

    I always tell people not to bother with these, except on items that will
    have wear and tear. Usually things with moving parts like washing machines,
    dishwashers etc. I'm usually capable of fixing most things, so I never
    bother getting them myself.

    For consumer electronics, if it's going to fail, the chances are that it'll
    be within the first year. Solid state electronics are pretty reliable if
    treated well and with the extended warranty often being up to 50% of the
    purchase price, it's not worth it. Consider the value of the item at the end
    of the term. Hi-tech gizmos often devalue quicker than cars. As an example,
    when the Sony playstation was around £300, I took out an 5 year extended
    warranty for around £120 IIRC. At the end of the term, the item cost £89
    brand new. It's a gamble, but one usually worth taking.

    In most large electronic stores in the UK, the staff get commission on these
    but not purchases, so they push them hard. I've seen many articles and TV
    shows on how bad they are, and given our consumer law they seem unnecessary
    for a lot of things.

    Things may be totally different where you are of course!!

    Fraser.
     
  5. Fraser

    Fraser Guest

    See post in response to Chris Steets post, I've put more details of the
    fault on there.

    Cheers,

    Fraser.
     
  6. Fraser

    Fraser Guest

    Hope the weird posting doesn't confuse anyone, pulling all the techy stuff
    into one place:




    What Andy said. :) That's exactly what the guy at the repair shop said, and
    they are waiting for me to get back to them on what the
    retailer/manufacturer say.

    The TV has always had a green tint as well, as if the bias was way off.
    Tried using the service menu once to bring it down, but there was no change,
    so I set it back to it's original setting. Don't know if that's related, but
    worth a mention.

    Cool, that would be handy! It's a Toshiba 32W8DB.


    Cheers,

    Fraser.
     
  7. Fraser

    Fraser Guest

    The sites you list (which are pretty good btw, thanks) kinda differ from
    that description though. There doesn't seem to be any mention of the fault
    being inherent when the item is bought. What does seem to be the case is the
    concept of a "resonable period" which would differ depending on the item.
    Some examples of this are mentioned in the sites, e.g. a car oil filter
    would be around a year, a new battery could discharge on-the-shelf in six
    months. The upper limit, 6 years from purchase in England, 5 years from
    fault discovery in Scotland (me) only applies to what you can actually bring
    a civil court case up for. Obviously, if you can't do that, then the shop
    really doesn't have to do anything.

    For an expensive TV, the consensus seems to be that 3.5 years is
    "unreasonable". Hopefully the store will see it that way!

    Fraser.
     
  8. Fraser

    Fraser Guest

    That website has pretty much the same claim. From the FAQ at:
    http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/cgi-bin/calitem.cgi?file=ADV0054-1111.txt

    --- >8 ---
    Q. I bought a fridge/freezer about 18 months ago, and the freezer section
    has completely failed. I went back to the shop, but they refused to do
    anything as it was outside the original 12 month guarantee. What are my
    rights?
    A. Firstly, when you buy goods from a shop, you enter into a contract under
    the Sale of Goods Act 1979 (as amended). This holds the shop liable for up
    to six years after purchase (Limitation Act 1980), providing that you can
    show that the problem is down to an unreasonable fault and not normal wear
    and tear. Secondly, remember that the guarantee is in addition to these
    statutory legal rights. Don't be taken in by the shop's argument here - they
    are using the issue of the guarantee as a red herring to try to avoid their
    legal obligations toward you. See our leaflet 'Buying Goods' for more
    information on your rights.
    --- >8 ---


    Oh yeah, probably should have mentioned I'm in Scotland, so things may be a
    little different (5 years from discovery of fault, as opposed to 6 from
    purchase). I put part (but not all) of the purchase on my Visa, which also
    may have relevance. The Trading Standards website says "This means that the
    credit card company and the supplier have the same obligations and
    responsibilities to you for the goods being satisfactory.", however that may
    not apply because 100% of the purchase wasn't put on the credit card. I'll
    probably keep that as a last resort.

    I'll be getting in touch with the store on Monday. Gives me a chance to find
    the receipt (which Trading Standards says isn't actually necessary!) and let
    the store quieten down a bit after the Christmas sales. It will be easier if
    the manager is in a good mood!! ;-) Fingers crossed!!


    Fraser.
     
  9. Andy Hall

    Andy Hall Guest

    Be careful here. The 6 year period is a statute of limitations which
    in effect lets the retailer off the hook at the end of that time.
    It doesn't mean that they *have* to fix problems with *any* product
    for that whole period.

    In effect, the manufacturer's warranty period means that problems that
    occur during the warranty period should be fixed without your having
    to negotiate the issue. Between the end of that and 6 years you
    *may* have a case, depending on the product, its position in the
    market and what it cost. The issue then comes to whether the
    retailer wants to play ball - this may well not be a store manager
    decision - and how far you then want to pursue the issue.

    Ultimately, you can take it to the court where you may win something.
    Before embarking on that course, I would certainly talk to Trading
    Standards for an opinion on what you are likely to get. One factor in
    this is whether you are prepared to invest the effort required and
    wait the amount of time that it will take to get a hearing.

    You mentioned that the there had always been a green caste over the
    picture. This could well have been a manufacturing defect which was
    a precursor to the catastrophic failure that has happened now.
    Arguably, you should have reported that at the outset, but it's too
    late for that now.

    There is new legislation as a result of an EU Directive which puts the
    onus on the retailer to prove that there was not a manufacturing
    defect. However, IIRC, you only have 6 months after purchase to
    report a problem due to that. Also, I believe that the UK has not
    yet fully implemented all of the Directive provisions into statute,
    and possibly Scotland will be different anyway. It may be that this
    won't apply anyway since your purchase probably predates the new
    legislation. Again TS will be able to help you.


    ..andy

    To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
     
  10. half_pint

    half_pint Guest

    Can I just surprise you there?
    If you look at a wall and focus on a point which is far enough away
    to be in focus (about 10 inches, but a reasonable distance for discussion
    is about say 4 feet?) the image you can see in detail is round effectively
    perfectly round. This is because visual sensitivity on the eyes retina is
    round. (Consult any text book or google on fovea and macula).
    And you can forget any two eyes arguement, both eyes are focused on the
    same point, this is how our eyes work.
    Yes the field of vison when moving your eyes is wider, due to the bone
    structure of the face, but if I look between my legs I have 360 degrees
    vision in the horizontal range.
    Lol you mean like the way a picture of two men carrrying a ladder
    is used to advertise WS TV?

    If you look at a randon selection of 'art' pictures you will find only
    about 10% in a WS format.
    Unsurprisingly you will find that on average the ratio is 1:1.
    Pick up any newspaper and count the WS images (I just
    did) there are hardly any, most are taller than wide.
    How do you explaing that? Answer - You can't.

    I actually have a copy of the Sun here with an article on
    the Beckams (which was filmed in WS), 3 out of the four
    pictures printed are in a portrait format (taller than wide).
    (I only bought it for a cheap TV guide btw).

    However if the visual sensitivity of the eye does evolve
    into a WS format I will conceed it is a more natural format.

    In the mean time I think you are living in the land of clouds and
    cookoo's ( or should I say seagulls, which do actually have a
    WS visual sensitivity)
     
  11. Mike

    Mike Guest

    Here they do. The retailers push them like hell to boost their
    margins.[/QUOTE]

    Even to the point of stupidity. Consider a salesman's job. It's to sell
    you the product, right? So you build up how good the product is etc. right?

    Then, me having decided on the product (in this case a video), out comes
    the extended warranty spiel. "No thanks." says I. Salesman's response?
    "Well, these devices are very unreliable and prone to breaking down.
    The repair costs are astronomical, you really should get the warranty".

    The temptation was to say "You're right, they are total crap. I'm not
    buying one of those. See ya!" ... and put in a good word to the manager
    for his honest salesman :)

    In practice: the item was a Goldstar (LG) PW904i video. I had one, my
    uncle had one. Both saw day to day domestic use.

    Uncle: First one packed up within warranty (display lights up every
    segment, and just keeps cycling, won't power up). Power supply replaced.
    Broke again, same fault, about 12 months later.

    Mine: Broke just out of warranty (14 months?) Replacement PSU would be 50
    pounds. Broke again after about 18 months. Replacement electrolytics for
    existing PSU, a couple of pounds. Still going OK.

    So the salesman was right, they are unreliable rubbish (for longevity).

    Someone has cut the corners on the design of this PSU so that it will last
    (guaranteed) 12 months, and anything beyond that is a bonus. A total of 4
    manufacturer's original PSUs, all gone phut with duff electrolytics. I'd
    call that unreasonable. I wish I'd known about the 6 year limit referenced
    above ...

    Mike.
     
  12. No it isn't. If your eyes are working correctly you will be seeing a
    widescreen view of the wall.
    But your view on the world, as you have two eyes, is NOT round - it is
    widescreen.
    No i isn't. Learn about vision.
    Very rare that you will find a square picture.
    Because newspapers and magazines are designed to be read in columns.
    It already is.
    They have a wider view than us, but ours is still a widescreen view.
     
  13. Wrong. You get "up to 6 years". It depends very much on the product
    and the fault - and it is up to you to prove that the fault was
    inherent in the product from the time of purchase.
     
  14. Fraser

    Fraser Guest

    My bad; over simplification in the post, I understand what the 6 year thing
    refers to i.e. raising civil cases. Doesn't mean you'll win!! ;-)

    Having found the receipt, I now realise that it cost £1050, so that should
    help the case. It was a top of the range set, highly rated in What HiFi (or
    some other mag), and made by one of the largest TV manufacturers. Should be
    a reasonable case that it should last four years (receipt confirms purchase
    date as Sept 1999). Hopefully!

    Definitely a good idea, I'll look them up tomorrow & pay them a visit. It
    may well be that they provide the tube, and I the labor. It's actually been
    in for repair since October, so I don't expect to be charged a lot for the
    work given their slowness in even getting it up onto the test bed (about 3-4
    weeks ago).

    Would that be negative to my cause? If so, I could keep quiet about it as I
    haven't spoken to Comet yet about it.

    Also, it's not always been there; I'd say around 6-9 months before the
    current failure. Before that, there were no issues, other than a little
    picture foldback, but there were user-accessable screen position controls
    I'd used to minimise that.

    All in all, I've had several problems. Could these help my case, or should I
    just focus on the current fault?

    When you say manufacturing defect, do you mean a defect unique to my item,
    or would it also include a generic design defect? The guy in the repair shop
    mentioned it as a known problem with this tube, and in my mind that would be
    suitable justification for repair.

    Fraser.
     
  15. Fraser

    Fraser Guest

    There was a bad batch of capacitors a while back, perhaps related to your
    problem. Just about everything they were used on failed due to electrolyte
    leakage. If that's the case, going on the advice seen here, it's an inherent
    fault and you should be entitled to compensation. I think.

    Fraser.
     
  16. Fraser

    Fraser Guest

    Not according to the following at:
    http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/cgi-bin/calitem.cgi?file=ADV0054-1111.txt

    (in reference to the latter part of your statement that is, I agree on the
    "up to 6 years" bit, my post was badly worded)


    ----------- >8 -----------
    Q. I bought a fridge/freezer about 18 months ago, and the freezer section
    has completely failed. I went back to the shop, but they refused to do
    anything as it was outside the original 12 month guarantee. What are my
    rights?
    A. Firstly, when you buy goods from a shop, you enter into a contract under
    the Sale of Goods Act 1979 (as amended). This holds the shop liable for up
    to six years after purchase (Limitation Act 1980), providing that you can
    show that the problem is down to an unreasonable fault and not normal wear
    and tear. Secondly, remember that the guarantee is in addition to these
    statutory legal rights. Don't be taken in by the shop's argument here - they
    are using the issue of the guarantee as a red herring to try to avoid their
    legal obligations toward you. See our leaflet 'Buying Goods' for more
    information on your rights.
    ----------- >8 -----------

    No mention of having the fault present at the time of purchase at all, just
    that's it's considered "unreasonable". I'll ask them tomorrow when I am in
    Trading Standards and post back results.

    Thanks for all the input everyone, appreciated!!

    Fraser.
     
  17. Andy Hall

    Andy Hall Guest

    Based on that, I would certainly pursue it.
    That's not good service at all.

    I think that offering a compromise position won't do any harm either.


    I wouldn't mention it unless you get completely stonewalled. If that
    happens then I might be tempted to push the point. The problem is
    that they can say that you should have reported it earlier. However
    since the purchase pre-dates the new legislation, it probably doesn't
    matter too much.

    I suppose the lesson here is, if you buy something top of the line
    then go over it very carefully and if it is not perfect then return
    it.

    If you can catalogue them then yes, I suppose you could argue
    manufacturing defect or design problems.

    AIUI, it can be either, because a design defect could make it unfit
    for purpose - assuming it does.
    Is the repair shop associated with the retailer or a separate
    organisation? Either way he's your ally, but if he's a separate
    organisation, would he be prepared to state that the tube has a known
    design problem? Have you tried searching on the web using the part
    number of the tube to see if there is any mention of it? Perhaps
    some enquiries at Philips would reveal something.


    Another thing to think about before you go too far with this is the
    residual value in the product. How long would you expect it to last
    before buying a replacement? Let's say 8 years for the sake of
    argument. Therefore you have £500 of value left if you assume a
    linear write down. So, before committing to a lot of time and
    direct and indirect cost if you consider legal action or other
    remedies, keep in mind that that is really the value that you are
    protecting, not the original purchase price.




    ..andy

    To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
     
  18. Sorry Fraser, only just seen this post.
    Had a Toshiba tube go at three year old (not the same model as yours). Wrote
    to them, and they requested proof of purchase and an engineer's report
    stating the tube had failed.

    Never heard a word from them myself, but they contacted the engineer and
    offered to pay for the tube. I paid the labour.

    The address I wrote to was at Camberley, Surry. GU15 3DT

    HTH
     
  19. Andy Hall wrote:

    I think this is extremely good advice, and, if followed, would actually
    improve product quality.

    I have a Land Rover Defender that has been back for about half a dozen
    warranty repairs, including repsraying bits of it that corroded. As I
    understand it, every time a warranty repair is undertaken, teh car
    manufacture gets the bits back, sends them back to its supplier, and
    they bear the cost of replacement. If this happenes often enough, those
    parts don't get replaced with et same parts, but with better parts,
    because the manufacturers stop making any profit.

    You have to be ruthless. Laziness is what allows teh manufactures to
    believe that they cheapo crap they are bolting in is of acceptable
    quality. In teh case of 99% of teh British Car industry, what happened
    was that people didn't send the cars back, they simply stopped buying
    them and the whole industry vanished.

    I have some sympathy with manufactureres: Its not easy to control
    component quality. As a designer for productiomn my designs were often
    compromised by the buyer attempting to save pence by buying substandard
    components. Or productin engineers removing them altogether ("but they
    still work: Yes, but not when they get hot/a low spec bunch of
    trnsasitors get used/ under exterem power conditions etc etc).


    In the OP's case, the fact that the set is worth better than a grand,
    and a picture tube fitted is probably far less than that, its worth
    pursuing even on a split/parts labour cost. Go direct to the
    manufacturers and complain about the quality of the product, and the
    quality of service from the retailer. In the car world at least, car
    dealers who have a slew of complaints against them lose franchises.
     
  20. geoff

    geoff Guest

    I thought that 16:9 formed a golden rectangle.

    Anyway, rant on if you wish, but that's the standard which is on it's
    way in, so what are you going to do when your trusty old 4:3 finally
    croaks - stop watching TV?
     
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