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Recognizing lead-free solder

A

Arfa Daily

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jeff Liebermann said:
See:
http://www.floridacenter.org/publications/lead_leachability_99-5.pdf
The proceedure is to test for leaching using moderately acidic water
(Ph = 5.0) and to literally pulverize the glass to accellerate the
leaching (See Method Phase I). As expected this yielded the worst
case results at about 3 times the US limits.

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558 [email protected]-cruz.ca.us
# http://802.11junk.com [email protected]
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

Yes Jeff, I too have seen similar scenarios for producing the public scare
results that the instigators of some of this legislation need in order to
validate it ( and the existence of their jobs and departments, and their own
over-inflated opinions of themselves ). I didn't realise that it had got as
far as trying to ban lead glass over there. At least here in Europe, as I
said, CRT technology has been granted an exemption. Going back to schoolboy
chemistry, I seem to think that normal rain is actually slightly acidic -
picks up carbon dioxide on its way down and becomes carbonic acid or
something like that ?? But very weak anyway, certainly nothing like as low a
ph as 5, I wouldn't have thought. Of course, there is genuine acid rain,
created by pollution in the atmosphere, but I would have thought that if it
was reaching anywhere near 5, every piece of exposed metal would be rotting
away every 2 years, and that there were serious and more pressing problems
with the legislation regarding reducing and removing atmospheric emmissions
from factories.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not against doing away with dangerous manufacturing
processes and materials, which are injurious to both people, and the planet
in general, but there are degrees to which it's practical, and levels of
risk, and I really honestly believe that lead in solder is such a low risk
issue - particularly in view of the fact that additional legislation has
been put in place to deal with that risk - that the problems its removal is
causing to the electronics manufacturing and repair industries, far outweigh
any short or long term advantages.

It seems to me that the words " horse ", " stable door " and " bolted "
should be applied. If there is an issue with lead from solder getting into
the eco system, then it's already happened / happening, and landfills that
are full of junked electronics, need digging back up to remove that problem.
If end of life electronic equipment is now going to be properly recycled
under control of law, then there is no need to replace a valid, mature, and
above all reliable technology, with one that has disastrous potential ...

Arfa
 
A

Arfa Daily

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jim Yanik said:
I believe the lead in CRT glass does not leach out.
It's probably the monitor electronics is where the lead is coming from.
Also,it's not just the faceplate the lead-glass is used,as the lead is
intended to attenuate X-rays which I believe scatter BACK from the target.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Now I come to think back to my college theory days ( blimey, that was a long
time ago ! ) I seem to recall that the x-ray emissions from a monochrome
tube are barely detectable, and those from a colour tube, only fall into the
weak and soft category, due to there only being around 25kV available for
acceleration, and that the electron beam is not streamed directly onto a
target anode. Indeed, the beam doesn't impact on a physical anode as such,
at all, but requires a DC path for the spent electrons to return to the
power supply, and that seems to ring distant bells in the cobweb-y recesses
of my brain, as being the reason that lead doped glass is used for the
faceplate ie to make it sufficiently conductive that it forms a high
impedance return path back to ground via the rimband.

On the other hand, going back to the early days of colour television, when a
GY501 HV rectifier and a PD500 shunt stabilizer were used, these two
thermionic devices *did* produce significant x-radiation due to the
electrons impinging on a genuine tungsten anode, hence the reason that if
you were working on the HOP stage with the cage removed, you needed to put a
lead glass shield around the shunt stabilizer tube, but if you were just
working on the set in general, no such protection for your nuts from CRT
x-radiation was required. Must've worked tho' as I've got three kids ...

I also seem to recall that in order for *useful* hard x-rays to be produced,
a proper x-ray tube runs with 90kV + ??

Arfa
 
I

ian field

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jim Land said:
Yes, but the lead coming out of tailpipes was widely distributed in the
air, whereas electronics that wind up in landfill dumps just sit there
for a long time and continuously leach their chemicals into the nearby
ground, whence it flows down into water tables and gets into drinking
water. I'd prefer my drinking water lead-free, thank you.

Sorry - aint gonna happen! Remember where lead came from in the first place?

Better to use it up into a stable corrosion resistant alloy that effectively
removes it from the environment!

If you really feel that strongly about lead in the water table, maybe you'd
better invest in a ground penetrating radar set and seek out all the
abandoned lead pipes.
 
I

ian field

Jan 1, 1970
0
Arfa Daily said:
I have a friend who owns a clay range. A few years back, there was a big
thing locally about shot from his range ending up in a wheat field behind.
This also lead to complaints on the noise issue. As far as I recall, they
changed over to a different cartridge, that has a non-lead shot content,
and a lower velocity powder charge, which cuts down on the noise, making
more of a soft whumph noise than the previous sharp bangs. I haven't seen
him for a while, nor been to the range, so I don't know what the effects
of this have been on the sport, but I will try to find out, if you like.

I think that the issue with ' out of the ground / back to the ground '
that's usually quoted, is that it came out of the ground as a naturally
occuring ore, but goes back as refined lead. But I'm still not convinced
that this whole thing is not just an eco smokescreen, keeping beaurocrats
in a job. I'm sure that there are much more hazardous substances getting
into the eco system, than lead from solder.

Arfa

Arfa

If you can find out that would be great - I thought I overheard somewhere
that they merely coated the lead shot with bismuth.
 
I

ian field

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jim Yanik said:
I believe the lead in CRT glass does not leach out.
It's probably the monitor electronics is where the lead is coming from.
Also,it's not just the faceplate the lead-glass is used,as the lead is
intended to attenuate X-rays which I believe scatter BACK from the target.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Lead glass is widely used in decorative table glassware - but then the
Romans used to eat off pewter plates which is pretty much solder by another
name!!!
 
I

ian field

Jan 1, 1970
0
Arfa Daily said:
Now I come to think back to my college theory days ( blimey, that was a
long time ago ! ) I seem to recall that the x-ray emissions from a
monochrome tube are barely detectable, and those from a colour tube, only
fall into the weak and soft category, due to there only being around 25kV
available for acceleration, and that the electron beam is not streamed
directly onto a target anode. Indeed, the beam doesn't impact on a
physical anode as such, at all, but requires a DC path for the spent
electrons to return to the power supply, and that seems to ring distant
bells in the cobweb-y recesses of my brain, as being the reason that lead
doped glass is used for the faceplate ie to make it sufficiently
conductive that it forms a high impedance return path back to ground via
the rimband.

On the other hand, going back to the early days of colour television, when
a GY501 HV rectifier and a PD500 shunt stabilizer were used, these two
thermionic devices *did* produce significant x-radiation due to the
electrons impinging on a genuine tungsten anode, hence the reason that if
you were working on the HOP stage with the cage removed, you needed to put
a lead glass shield around the shunt stabilizer tube, but if you were just
working on the set in general, no such protection for your nuts from CRT
x-radiation was required. Must've worked tho' as I've got three kids ...

I also seem to recall that in order for *useful* hard x-rays to be
produced, a proper x-ray tube runs with 90kV + ??

Arfa

Those were hatefull sets to work on - I held onto my day job until the
setmakers started to introduce designs with (non shunt) regulated EHT!
 
J

Jeff Liebermann

Jan 1, 1970
0
I didn't realise that it had got as
far as trying to ban lead glass over there.

We have a substantial number of "environmental activists" that
actively persue their agendas in the courts and the legislatures. I'm
somewhat on the fence as to their motives and effectiveness. In most
cases, they genuinely believe that what they're doing is saving the
world or preventing some disaster. The problem is that I see as much
environmental abuse by companies and manufactories, as I see abuse by
environmental activists. It's a miserable way to achieve a workable
compromise, but it's all we have.

The issue over lead testing is a marginal example of abuse on both
sides. The environmentalists want to remove lead from just about
everything on the grounds that it's lowering their own IQ. At the
present time, something like 90 to 95% of all lead acid batteries are
properly recycled. Using that as an indication of success, the
environmental activists expanded the program to other uses for lead.
However, unlike batteries, there's no positive financial incentive to
recycle CRT's or circuit boards. So, they provide a negative
incentive. In California, we pay a tax on CRT's, in advance, to pay
for recycling. What's hillarious is that it also includes LCD panels
with have almost no lead in them. Since this is revenue for the
state, the politicians are all for it. The vendors don't care because
they just pass the cost on to the consumer.
http://www.ciwmb.ca.gov/Electronics/

In effect, what the money had done is pre-pay the waste disposal
charges. The county would previously charge $10 per monitor to accept
it at the municipal dump. Now, it's just part of the usual handling
fee (currently $8 per pickup truck load). The monitors are seperated
and handled as hazardous waste.
http://www.ciwmb.ca.gov/Electronics/Act2003/Retailer/Fee/
http://www.boe.ca.gov/sptaxprog/ewaste.htm

Some photos of the pile. The older photos show computers, printers,
and hi-fi's, which are no longer recycled along with the CRT's.
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/e-waste/index.html

Also, not everyone believes the lead recycling figures:
http://www.things.org/~jym/greenpeace/myth-of-battery-recycling.html
Also, we tend to export our recycling to 3rd world countries with
limited environmental regulations. These countries method of
recycling the lead tends to be rather disgusting, such as building a
big bon-fire, and collecting the melted solder or lead.
But very weak anyway, certainly nothing like as low a
ph as 5, I wouldn't have thought. Of course, there is genuine acid rain,

It's not the acid rain. It's the water leachate from the landfill
that's fairly acidic. The local landfill uses a clay sealer to reduce
water incursion into the landfill. Despite such efforts, acidic water
found in a nearby creek requires treatment to prevent killing
everything alive.
created by pollution in the atmosphere, but I would have thought that if it
was reaching anywhere near 5, every piece of exposed metal would be rotting
away every 2 years, and that there were serious and more pressing problems
with the legislation regarding reducing and removing atmospheric emmissions
from factories.

It doesn't get anywhere near PH=5 from acid rain. However, the use of
such acidic water is part of the test because in some parts of the
country, it is possible to have such an acidic runnoff due to minerals
in the soil, industrial runoff, or previous pollution. Same with
pulverizing the glass. The EPA tests for the worst case senario. I
don't approve of this, but I suspect that nobody wanted to deal with
regional testing variations.
risk, and I really honestly believe that lead in solder is such a low risk
issue - particularly in view of the fact that additional legislation has
been put in place to deal with that risk

http://www.cincinnatichildrens.org/about/news/release/2001/4-lead.htm
http://www.mcsba.org/ed_news/lead.html
http://www.who.int/docstore/peh/burden/wsh00-7/Methodan6-6.htm
http://www.unhp.org/lead.html

I think the efforts are justified. What else could explain the lack
of intelligent thinking currently epidemic in the US government?
that the problems its removal is
causing to the electronics manufacturing and repair industries, far outweigh
any short or long term advantages.

Lead poisoning is apparently cumulative. If we project the current
increased levels found in the environment, we are approaching
concentrations which will be difficult to avoid much less remove from
the environment. Better to get rid of the stuff while we can. I
don't like the methods and rationalizations by the environmental
activists, but the cause is justified.
If end of life electronic equipment is now going to be properly recycled
under control of law, then there is no need to replace a valid, mature, and
above all reliable technology, with one that has disastrous potential ...

Nope. Just CRT's. We'll get to electronics eventually.

Incidentally, I once obtained a large pile of NiCad AA cells from a
volume user. It seems it was cheaper to just give me the batteries
than to deal with the handling and paperwork of proper disposal. I
recently also picked up a large pile of fairly good UPS gel-cell
batteries for the same reason. I *LIKE* such laws.
 
A

Arfa Daily

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jeff Liebermann said:
We have a substantial number of "environmental activists" that
actively persue their agendas in the courts and the legislatures. I'm
somewhat on the fence as to their motives and effectiveness. In most
cases, they genuinely believe that what they're doing is saving the
world or preventing some disaster. The problem is that I see as much
environmental abuse by companies and manufactories, as I see abuse by
environmental activists. It's a miserable way to achieve a workable
compromise, but it's all we have.

The issue over lead testing is a marginal example of abuse on both
sides. The environmentalists want to remove lead from just about
everything on the grounds that it's lowering their own IQ. At the
present time, something like 90 to 95% of all lead acid batteries are
properly recycled. Using that as an indication of success, the
environmental activists expanded the program to other uses for lead.
However, unlike batteries, there's no positive financial incentive to
recycle CRT's or circuit boards. So, they provide a negative
incentive. In California, we pay a tax on CRT's, in advance, to pay
for recycling. What's hillarious is that it also includes LCD panels
with have almost no lead in them. Since this is revenue for the
state, the politicians are all for it. The vendors don't care because
they just pass the cost on to the consumer.
http://www.ciwmb.ca.gov/Electronics/

In effect, what the money had done is pre-pay the waste disposal
charges. The county would previously charge $10 per monitor to accept
it at the municipal dump. Now, it's just part of the usual handling
fee (currently $8 per pickup truck load). The monitors are seperated
and handled as hazardous waste.
http://www.ciwmb.ca.gov/Electronics/Act2003/Retailer/Fee/
http://www.boe.ca.gov/sptaxprog/ewaste.htm

Some photos of the pile. The older photos show computers, printers,
and hi-fi's, which are no longer recycled along with the CRT's.
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/e-waste/index.html

Also, not everyone believes the lead recycling figures:
http://www.things.org/~jym/greenpeace/myth-of-battery-recycling.html
Also, we tend to export our recycling to 3rd world countries with
limited environmental regulations. These countries method of
recycling the lead tends to be rather disgusting, such as building a
big bon-fire, and collecting the melted solder or lead.


It's not the acid rain. It's the water leachate from the landfill
that's fairly acidic. The local landfill uses a clay sealer to reduce
water incursion into the landfill. Despite such efforts, acidic water
found in a nearby creek requires treatment to prevent killing
everything alive.


It doesn't get anywhere near PH=5 from acid rain. However, the use of
such acidic water is part of the test because in some parts of the
country, it is possible to have such an acidic runnoff due to minerals
in the soil, industrial runoff, or previous pollution. Same with
pulverizing the glass. The EPA tests for the worst case senario. I
don't approve of this, but I suspect that nobody wanted to deal with
regional testing variations.


http://www.cincinnatichildrens.org/about/news/release/2001/4-lead.htm
http://www.mcsba.org/ed_news/lead.html
http://www.who.int/docstore/peh/burden/wsh00-7/Methodan6-6.htm
http://www.unhp.org/lead.html

I think the efforts are justified. What else could explain the lack
of intelligent thinking currently epidemic in the US government?


Lead poisoning is apparently cumulative. If we project the current
increased levels found in the environment, we are approaching
concentrations which will be difficult to avoid much less remove from
the environment. Better to get rid of the stuff while we can. I
don't like the methods and rationalizations by the environmental
activists, but the cause is justified.


Nope. Just CRT's. We'll get to electronics eventually.

Incidentally, I once obtained a large pile of NiCad AA cells from a
volume user. It seems it was cheaper to just give me the batteries
than to deal with the handling and paperwork of proper disposal. I
recently also picked up a large pile of fairly good UPS gel-cell
batteries for the same reason. I *LIKE* such laws.

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558 [email protected]-cruz.ca.us
# http://802.11junk.com [email protected]
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

Jeff

I see all the same arguments regarding children's IQ and lead over here, but
the figures don't seem to add up. When I was a kid, all water was delivered
to houses in lead pipes - and yes, I know all the stuff about the insides of
the pipes coating up with calcium - and all soldered joints on copper pipes
were done with a traditional lead solder. All vehicle petrol ( gasoline )
contained lead for its anti-knock properties. This lead content, for the
most part, went straight out of the cars' tailpipes, and either straight
into our bodies through breathing, or into the eco system by way of
settlement and rain washing. This *must* have resulted in *much* higher
concentrations than we now have, since lead has been removed from petrol.

On this basis, our generation should be the peak of decline in lead-induced
IQ poorness. But look around you. Would you honestly believe that to be so ?
I would consider myself to be of probably a bit above average intelligence
for my generation. I went to a Grammar School, where I neither shone, nor
failed - I was an average kid at that type of school. Now, compared to those
who go to the top schools that we have, I'm a bloody genius. So why are kids
now so thick ? Our illustrious leader Blair, who you couldn't trust to give
you info or figures that weren't covered in massage oil anyway, insists that
kids are getting more and more intelligent by the year. Something ridiculous
like 95% of them now pass their final exams with A or A* grades. Presumably,
apart from his wonderful ( ha! ) education system, lack of lead in their
brains is the reason for this - but wait ! They are actually, in general,
THICK now compared to a couple of generations ago, when there was a lot more
lead around. They manage to get these grades because they are not now taught
the knowledge required to pass any exam on the subject, but the knowledge to
pass the specific one that they are going to get ... I used to talk to a lot
of my own kids' friends, and we see plenty on the TV, and I can't believe
just how far down the toilet, intelligence has gone.

But it's nothing to do with lead in the eco system. It's a social issue.
It's all about attitudes, and half-arsed new teaching methods, and having
classroom assistants who are not qualified or sufficiently intelligent
themselves, to be interacting with our kids. I know a latter-day teacher,
who still doesn't know the difference between the words "bought" and
"brought", so there's another generation of kids on the slippery slope.

If taking lead out of petrol, which when it was in, was by far the best way
of getting pure lead into people, has not reversed this trend, then messing
about removing lead that's locked up chemically in glass and solder, sure as
hell isn't going to have any significant effect. As far as poor recycling
methods in third world countries goes, that cannot be used as an excuse for
not doing it, or saying that the process of recycling is dangerous to
humans. It need not be, if it is carried out correctly.

I agree that efforts to control poisons and hormones and all the other nasty
stuff that gets into our lives, are laudable, but it's a matter of degree.
Some pollutants can never be practically removed, nor do they need to be on
dubious eco-grounds. It is a fact of life that we will always have to endure
some, if we want to carry on living the sorts of consumer-based lives that
we do. You can't protect everybody against everything, and I think that lead
in solder ( and CRTs ) is just one such example where the eco-warriors have
gotten their teeth into something that sounds bad, with apparent tangible
negative effects, and run with it to the point of introducing needless
legislation that costs billions to implement worldwide, has negative effects
on reliability, has already been taken care of with ( acceptable ) recycling
legislation, and results in a worldwide increase in energy budget - with all
that's known of the genuine negative eco effects from that - to implement
use of lead-free solder.

If lead in the environment is really still going up, even though it has now
been removed from petrol, the most pressing question should be " where is it
really coming from ? " I'm willing to bet that they would have a hard time
proving it was from either solder or CRTs ...

Arfa
 
I

ian field

Jan 1, 1970
0
I agree that efforts to control poisons and hormones and all the other
nasty stuff that gets into our lives, are laudable, but it's a matter of
degree. Some pollutants can never be practically removed, nor do they need
to be on dubious eco-grounds. It is a fact of life that we will always
have to endure some, if we want to carry on living the sorts of
consumer-based lives that we do. You can't protect everybody against
everything, and I think that lead in solder ( and CRTs ) is just one such
example where the eco-warriors have gotten their teeth into something that
sounds bad, with apparent tangible negative effects, and run with it to
the point of introducing needless legislation that costs billions to
implement worldwide, has negative effects on reliability, has already been
taken care of with ( acceptable ) recycling legislation, and results in a
worldwide increase in energy budget - with all that's known of the genuine
negative eco effects from that - to implement use of lead-free solder.

If lead in the environment is really still going up, even though it has
now been removed from petrol, the most pressing question should be " where
is it really coming from ? " I'm willing to bet that they would have a
hard time proving it was from either solder or CRTs ...

Arfa

Maybe do a search on lead procurement in general - find out where its going
now, it may be possible to queer the eco-warriors pitch by extending the
campaign to even more ridiculous extremes.

It could be there's some use for lead that the legislators who pass this
crap can't do without!
 
A

Arfa Daily

Jan 1, 1970
0
ian field said:
Maybe do a search on lead procurement in general - find out where its
going now, it may be possible to queer the eco-warriors pitch by extending
the campaign to even more ridiculous extremes.

It could be there's some use for lead that the legislators who pass this
crap can't do without!
I've just been having a look to see where it all goes, and the bulk still
seems to be to the auto battery manufacturers. Other major uses are paint,
although now only used for specials such as are used to paint bridges, lead
crystal glass, and roofing materials ( how long I wonder before lead
flashing on roofs gets banned, in favour of some other useles material that
doesn't seal as well, and needs to be replaced every 5 years ? ). Some of
the stuff relating to lead and its poisonous qualities, makes interesting
reading. For instance, it was chosen for making pipes for carrying water,
because of its extreme resistance to corrosion, by water. For "corrosion",
read chemical decomposition and release into the water ?? I also found
statements that once lead had found its way into the ground, from
particulate settlement of leaded gasoline exhaust fumes etc, it would remain
there forever. Hmmm. So how then, in that case, does it get transformed into
any kind of pollutant, that can get into us, and cause problems. Same goes
for lead locked up in solder, in landfills.

Also, looking at material on the dangers of lead ingestion, it seems to be a
predominantly child based issue, and the word " chronic " seems to keep
cropping up in all of the different articles. In this context, " chronic "
seems to indicate extremely high levels of lead ingestion, and even then, it
says that this only *may* lead to reduced IQ. It also says that symptoms of
lead poisoning are non specific and non unique, whatever that may mean.

Again, I accept that lead poisoning is very possibly an issue with certain
groups of children, but it surely must be asked where they are getting these
high concentrations of lead in their bloodstreams from ? I'm sure that it's
not from lead in solder, or solder that's found its way into landfill.

Arfa
 
I

ian field

Jan 1, 1970
0
Arfa Daily said:
I've just been having a look to see where it all goes, and the bulk still
seems to be to the auto battery manufacturers. Other major uses are paint,
although now only used for specials such as are used to paint bridges,
lead crystal glass, and roofing materials ( how long I wonder before lead
flashing on roofs gets banned, in favour of some other useles material
that doesn't seal as well, and needs to be replaced every 5 years ? ).
Some of the stuff relating to lead and its poisonous qualities, makes
interesting reading. For instance, it was chosen for making pipes for
carrying water, because of its extreme resistance to corrosion, by water.
For "corrosion", read chemical decomposition and release into the water ??
I also found statements that once lead had found its way into the ground,
from particulate settlement of leaded gasoline exhaust fumes etc, it would
remain there forever. Hmmm. So how then, in that case, does it get
transformed into any kind of pollutant, that can get into us, and cause
problems. Same goes for lead locked up in solder, in landfills.

Also, looking at material on the dangers of lead ingestion, it seems to be
a predominantly child based issue, and the word " chronic " seems to keep
cropping up in all of the different articles. In this context, " chronic
" seems to indicate extremely high levels of lead ingestion, and even
then, it says that this only *may* lead to reduced IQ. It also says that
symptoms of lead poisoning are non specific and non unique, whatever that
may mean.

Again, I accept that lead poisoning is very possibly an issue with certain
groups of children, but it surely must be asked where they are getting
these high concentrations of lead in their bloodstreams from ? I'm sure
that it's not from lead in solder, or solder that's found its way into
landfill.

Arfa

RoHS is a complete load of old bullshit and needs to be exposed as such!!!
 
A

Arfa Daily

Jan 1, 1970
0
ian field said:
RoHS is a complete load of old bullshit and needs to be exposed as such!!!
Amen to that Ian, but I fear that if the manufacturers haven't managed to
stand up to the powers that be, the chances of us being able to be heard,
are slim to zero ...

Just gotta live with it I fear, and moan and bitch for the fun of it, and
having it make us feel better about it all. I take it you are UK based, and
involved in the trade ??

Arfa
 
F

Franc Zabkar

Jan 1, 1970
0
Anyway, just how soluble is lead in water ? I'm not too sure,
but I expect some clever chemistry graduate will tell us. In the past, water
was delivered to all households in the UK via lead pipes. In a lot of older
properties, it still is. Certainly, the house that I grew up in had lead
pipework. I am not aware of people of my generation all dying of lead
poisoning, or having suffered intelligence lowering due to lead-induced
brain damage.

Here's an interesting case of lead poisoning:

http://www.lead.org.au/lanv4n3/lanv4n3-19.html

"According to the Medical Journal of Australia, in 1995 an Australian
man and his wife were lead poisoned by drinking non-alcoholic
carbonated beverages from a pewter mug purchased 10 years previously
in Malaysia. [Ref: Scarlett et al, MJA Vol 163 4/18 December 1995 p
589-590]"

- Franc Zabkar
 
F

Franc Zabkar

Jan 1, 1970
0
I believe the lead in CRT glass does not leach out.
It's probably the monitor electronics is where the lead is coming from.
Also,it's not just the faceplate the lead-glass is used,as the lead is
intended to attenuate X-rays which I believe scatter BACK from the target.

According to this article, the majority of the lead is in the funnel
and neck:

http://www.npr.org/programs/morning/features/2002/jul/recycling/index.html

The same article has this to say about the leaching of lead into the
water table:

"Akatiff says that even with tens of thousands of CRTs buried in his
landfill, about 80 percent of the monitoring wells surrounding the
facility show no evidence of lead. A few show trace amounts, he says,
levels that have also been also been detected in other California
landfills."

- Franc Zabkar
 
I

ian field

Jan 1, 1970
0
Arfa Daily said:
Amen to that Ian, but I fear that if the manufacturers haven't managed to
stand up to the powers that be, the chances of us being able to be heard,
are slim to zero ...

Just gotta live with it I fear, and moan and bitch for the fun of it, and
having it make us feel better about it all. I take it you are UK based,
and involved in the trade ??

Arfa

My main line was monitor repair (yes - UK) several things made it
unprofitable - resoldering masses of intermittent solder joints was one of
them, almost every single item had faulty soldering so a blanket resolder
was always required and cost a fortune in solder! Frequently the
intermittent joints caused other damage, some times rendering the equipment
beyond economic repair - so all the fresh solder was wasted!

The intermittent nature of lead free solder seems to have given consumers a
perception that once an item develops any kind of fault, it will go on to
give no end of trouble no matter how competently repaired - so they are far
more likely to just bin it and buy a new one!
 
A

Arfa Daily

Jan 1, 1970
0
Franc Zabkar said:
Anyway, just how soluble is lead in water ? I'm not too sure,
but I expect some clever chemistry graduate will tell us. In the past,
water
was delivered to all households in the UK via lead pipes. In a lot of
older
properties, it still is. Certainly, the house that I grew up in had lead
pipework. I am not aware of people of my generation all dying of lead
poisoning, or having suffered intelligence lowering due to lead-induced
brain damage.

Here's an interesting case of lead poisoning:

http://www.lead.org.au/lanv4n3/lanv4n3-19.html

"According to the Medical Journal of Australia, in 1995 an Australian
man and his wife were lead poisoned by drinking non-alcoholic
carbonated beverages from a pewter mug purchased 10 years previously
in Malaysia. [Ref: Scarlett et al, MJA Vol 163 4/18 December 1995 p
589-590]"

- Franc Zabkar

Interesting reading. Do you set much store by what they say, or is it a case
of another bunch of fanatics who make everything sound right for their cause
?

I'm not sure. Some of the cases cited do seem to have an element of the
fantastic ( as in fantasy ) about them. I must admit that I am always a
little sceptical about organisations that have to make up long involved
names that can then have their initial letters made into an acronym that
reflects their function like in this case " LEAD " and " GLASS " and " PAN
".

The cited case of the six farm workers that became " paralytic after
drinking cider taken to them at harvest work etc " actually tells us nothing
about the effects of glaze in the earthenwear pot, that can be taken as any
kind of proof of lead poisoning. Indeed, lead poisoning is generally taken
to be a long term cumulative affair, and I would be very surprised if that
sort of illness could be brought on by one session of drinking from a
flaggon with lead bearing glaze. Rather, I would suggest, becoming paralytic
was more likely to be an effect of drinking the cider itself. Anyone who
knows this local rough-fermented brew, which is normally known as "scrumpy",
will tell you that it's looney-juice. One pint of the stuff is enough to put
a big guy on his back, if he's not used to it. It's like drinking apple
brandy ...

On the other hand, the case of the pair poisoned by the pewter mug over ten
years, sounds reasonably possible, given that they were drinking some kind
of ( unspecified ) fizzy reactive beverage from it, which if fruit based,
may well have been quite acidic. Although we are told that they are poisoned
over this 10 year period, there is no specific information on what exactly
the symptoms of this poisoning were. Likewise, the guy who was awarded the
large sum for getting lead poisoned in an English pub. I'd like to actually
read that article, as this seems a very large sum for something that would
be as difficult to prove as that would be.

None of this actually makes me any less sceptical about the danger claims of
lead in solder, and CRTs, but it's all interesting stuff. Again, if anyone's
getting fed up with it all as off-topic rambling, please say so, and I'll
knock it on the head.

Arfa
 
J

Jeff Liebermann

Jan 1, 1970
0
Arfa Daily said:
On the other hand, the case of the pair poisoned by the pewter mug over ten
years, sounds reasonably possible, given that they were drinking some kind
of ( unspecified ) fizzy reactive beverage from it, which if fruit based,
may well have been quite acidic.

I dig out my handy Exstik II PH meter and measure:
Tap water : 6.7
Western Family Diet Lemon Lime: 4.1
Western Family Lemon Lime : 3.3
Coca Cola : 2.6
Ocean Spray Cramberry Cocktail: 3.5
Lemon Juice (added to tea) : 3.0

Oh, here's a PH table from the UK:
| http://www.britishsoftdrinks.com/htm/qa/AdditivesIngredients/acids/acids.htm

Soda pop and fruit juices are sufficiently acidic to leach out the
lead in pipes and drinking cups.
 
A

Arfa Daily

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jeff Liebermann said:
I dig out my handy Exstik II PH meter and measure:
Tap water : 6.7
Western Family Diet Lemon Lime: 4.1
Western Family Lemon Lime : 3.3
Coca Cola : 2.6
Ocean Spray Cramberry Cocktail: 3.5
Lemon Juice (added to tea) : 3.0

Oh, here's a PH table from the UK:
|
http://www.britishsoftdrinks.com/htm/qa/AdditivesIngredients/acids/acids.htm

Soda pop and fruit juices are sufficiently acidic to leach out the
lead in pipes and drinking cups.

--
Jeff Liebermann [email protected]-cruz.ca.us
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

OK, thanks for that. Looking at some of those figures, no wonder these
drinks rot your teeth away! It's like drinking schoolboy chem lab bench
acids. I seem to recall that some of them weren't much lower ...

Still, that certainly confirms what I thought about the pewter mug case. We
still don't know what the actual effects of this long term exposure was to
these people, or exactly how much they ingested. I don't suppose that you
have a bottle of beer to test the ph of, do you? It used to be very common
over here for regulars in village pubs, to keep their own ( often pewter )
pint mug behinf the bar. In fact giving one of these as an 18th birthday
gift ( legal drinking age here ) was at one time quite a tradition. My next
door neighbour certainly used to take one with him every night to the local
pub, but I don't know if he still does. I'll have to ask him.

Arfa
 
J

Jeff Liebermann

Jan 1, 1970
0
Arfa Daily said:
I don't suppose that you
have a bottle of beer to test the ph of, do you?

Sorry. No beer here.
Various web sites suggest that a ph of 4.0 to 4.3 is typical.
 
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