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Ready-made Ethernet controller module for MII PHY interface

A

Ant_Magma

Jan 1, 1970
0
Does anyone know of any ethernet modules that would be able to
communcate with this:

http://belfuse.com/Data/DBObject/0804-5000-03-04.pdf

It can be configured for MII/GPSI PHY or MII Host/DTE host interface.
I've found some on Google, i just want to know if any of you have any
experience with such modules and would recommend any?
 
A

Ant_Magma

Jan 1, 1970
0
Most of i found has SPI interface. Do any of you know any with MII
interface?
 
What you're looking for is an "ethernet phy evaluation" board.

A google search turned up a bunch. The ones from the chip makers can
be expensive, but the ones for things like the DSTINI are reasonably
priced.
 
A

Ant_Magma

Jan 1, 1970
0
Thanks, but in alot of these i do not see the word MII mentioned in
their descriptions. Is it compatible with my Belfuse module?
 
A

Ant_Magma

Jan 1, 1970
0
What you're looking for is an "ethernet phy evaluation" board.

A google search turned up a bunch. The ones from the chip makers can
be expensive, but the ones for things like the DSTINI are reasonably
priced.

Thanks, but in alot of these i do not see the word MII mentioned in
their descriptions. I don't think it's compatible with my Belfuse
module.

There this website http://www.edtp.com they have an array of ethernet
modules. However they uses SPI to communicate to the uC. I'm not very
knowleageble in these kind of things, but is there a way to convert SPI
to MII?
 
R

Richard H.

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ant_Magma said:
Thanks, but in alot of these i do not see the word MII mentioned in
their descriptions. I don't think it's compatible with my Belfuse
module.

There this website http://www.edtp.com they have an array of ethernet
modules. However they uses SPI to communicate to the uC. I'm not very
knowleageble in these kind of things, but is there a way to convert SPI
to MII?

You will find that some Ethernet controllers have an MII output on them.
For example, the ASIX AX88796L on the EDTP website. You still need to
interface the MCU with the Ethernet controller, but instead of using the
built-in PHY for the copper Ethernet connection you can use the MII
output for an alternate media (e.g., fiber).

In other words, you need to check the data sheets of the Ethernet
controllers.

Cheers,
Richard
 
A

Ant_Magma

Jan 1, 1970
0
Richard said:
You will find that some Ethernet controllers have an MII output on them.
For example, the ASIX AX88796L on the EDTP website. You still need to
interface the MCU with the Ethernet controller, but instead of using the
built-in PHY for the copper Ethernet connection you can use the MII
output for an alternate media (e.g., fiber).

In other words, you need to check the data sheets of the Ethernet
controllers.

Cheers,
Richard

Fred Eady's boards on www.edtp.com looks great.

I've emailed him and he has confirmed that only the NICholas version
with the AX88796L has MII connection. However, based on AX88796L 's
datasheet and the picture of the board on the website, it seems that
the MII connection pins are not used.

I've tried googling looking for boards similar to Fred's but to no
avail. I used terms such as MII PHY transceiver, Ethernet PHY module
etc. Any ideas?
 
R

Richard H.

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ant_Magma said:
Fred Eady's boards on www.edtp.com looks great.

I've emailed him and he has confirmed that only the NICholas version
with the AX88796L has MII connection. However, based on AX88796L 's
datasheet and the picture of the board on the website, it seems that
the MII connection pins are not used.

Aha. Yes, I concur, the MII pins are not extended on that board.

I've tried googling looking for boards similar to Fred's but to no
avail. I used terms such as MII PHY transceiver, Ethernet PHY module
etc. Any ideas?

You should ask Fred nicely if he still has any of his original ASIX
proto boards. They wire (nearly) every pin to a contact pad. That
board will do what you want. (The pads are on the left side, and are
labeled with their alternate printer port function.)

If not, you could persuade him to do a mod for you on NICholas and
hand-solder a few "flying wires" to the MII pins. I convinced him to do
that a couple times on the old board (for an address line that was
hard-wired).

The original ASIX proto board was tied to an article he wrote on it for
Circuit Cellar 3-4 years ago, and he's got AVR drivers on the website
for it. Again, maybe by request now.

The ASIX has a register to select the integrated PHY or the external
MII. Once that selector's switched you can talk to the MII powerline
module through the ASIX to set its options before activating the ASIX
controller.

Richard
 
A

Ant_Magma

Jan 1, 1970
0
Richard said:
Aha. Yes, I concur, the MII pins are not extended on that board.



You should ask Fred nicely if he still has any of his original ASIX
proto boards. They wire (nearly) every pin to a contact pad. That
board will do what you want. (The pads are on the left side, and are
labeled with their alternate printer port function.)

If not, you could persuade him to do a mod for you on NICholas and
hand-solder a few "flying wires" to the MII pins. I convinced him to do
that a couple times on the old board (for an address line that was
hard-wired).

The original ASIX proto board was tied to an article he wrote on it for
Circuit Cellar 3-4 years ago, and he's got AVR drivers on the website
for it. Again, maybe by request now.

The ASIX has a register to select the integrated PHY or the external
MII. Once that selector's switched you can talk to the MII powerline
module through the ASIX to set its options before activating the ASIX
controller.

Richard

Thanks Richard. But he haven't replied my previous email, so i don't
know how he thinks about my request. Can i mention your name in my next
email to him?

I have actually ordered parts to build my own Ethernet module based on
Micrel's KS8721B PHY transceivers, single layer only. However i was
told that to build a Ethernet module with only single layer is
impossible. Thus, with my limited knowledge and pressing deadline i
don't think i can make it, that's why i'm looking for ready-made
Ethernet MII modules.

If you know any other company that produces the similar thing as Fred
Eady's with MII connection i would appreaciate if you let me know.
Thanks.
 
R

Richard H.

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ant_Magma said:
Thanks Richard. But he haven't replied my previous email, so i don't
know how he thinks about my request. Can i mention your name in my next
email to him?

:) I'm flattered, but it wouldn't do any good. I'd be impressed if he
even remembered my order.

I have actually ordered parts to build my own Ethernet module based on
Micrel's KS8721B PHY transceivers, single layer only. However i was
told that to build a Ethernet module with only single layer is
impossible. Thus, with my limited knowledge and pressing deadline i
don't think i can make it, that's why i'm looking for ready-made
Ethernet MII modules.

Have you asked Belfuse if they have a dev kit for the powerline PHY?
If you know any other company that produces the similar thing as Fred
Eady's with MII connection i would appreaciate if you let me know.
Thanks.

I'd agree that making a single-layer Ethernet proto board will be nearly
impossible. It's hard enough to get working (not just laid out) with 2
layers. And if you're pressed for time you don't want to be trying to
figure out hardware problems on Ethernet. I had a bugger of a problem
and ended up having to blindly re-spin the board hoping I'd fixed the
problem. (Got lucky.)

I'm not aware of anyone else offering boards like Fred's. ASIX is one
of only 3-4 non-PCI controllers, and I'm fairly certain the others don't
have MII. Then, the liklihood of finding someone offering that chip on
a proto board with the MII pins extended is practically nil.

However... if you have the capability to make your own board, presumably
you can solder fine-pitch chips? If so, why not add the flying wires to
the MII pins on NICholas yourself?

Mostly I've seen MII interfaces as outputs on MCU's with integrated
Ethernet, such as the Freescale Coldfire. If you haven't picked an MCU
yet, that could be an option. But if you haven't picked an MCU or
Ethernet controller yet (or started writing drivers, etc.), you're a
long way from a working proto.

What kind of a deadline are you up against? Maybe someone here could do
the mod for you if Fred's not available.

Cheers,
Richard
 
A

Ant_Magma

Jan 1, 1970
0
Richard said:
Ant_Magma wrote:

Have you asked Belfuse if they have a dev kit for the powerline PHY?

No, they say they do not even have any reference designs or application
notes available.
I'd agree that making a single-layer Ethernet proto board will be nearly
impossible. It's hard enough to get working (not just laid out) with 2
layers. And if you're pressed for time you don't want to be trying to
figure out hardware problems on Ethernet. I had a bugger of a problem
and ended up having to blindly re-spin the board hoping I'd fixed the
problem. (Got lucky.)

I'm not aware of anyone else offering boards like Fred's. ASIX is one
of only 3-4 non-PCI controllers, and I'm fairly certain the others don't
have MII. Then, the liklihood of finding someone offering that chip on
a proto board with the MII pins extended is practically nil.

However... if you have the capability to make your own board, presumably
you can solder fine-pitch chips? If so, why not add the flying wires to
the MII pins on NICholas yourself?

Mostly I've seen MII interfaces as outputs on MCU's with integrated
Ethernet, such as the Freescale Coldfire. If you haven't picked an MCU
yet, that could be an option. But if you haven't picked an MCU or
Ethernet controller yet (or started writing drivers, etc.), you're a
long way from a working proto.

What kind of a deadline are you up against? Maybe someone here could do
the mod for you if Fred's not available.

Cheers,
Richard

I'm very hard pressed for time, around 3 weeks. I did not know building
an ethernet module is so hard.

I think extending the NICholas pins could be possible.
 
A

Ant_Magma

Jan 1, 1970
0
While i try to pursuade Fred, in the mean time does anyone know how to
build an ethernet module with just top n bottom 2 layers?
 
R

Richard H.

Jan 1, 1970
0
Going back to this comment, what does this PHY have to do with your
project, and what were you going to connect this part to? It's a 10/100
copper PHY, and seems out of place unless you're trying to tie the two
PHYs together through MII to make a converter. I don't know if this is
possible (maybe; if so, this could be technically much simpler).

Perhaps you could explain what you're trying to achieve... The original
post seemed like you're trying to create <something> that connects to
powerline networking. It also seems like you're focused on testing /
proof-of-concept for the powerline technology.

If you connect the PHY to an Ethernet controller, it needs a CPU, and
the CPU needs driver software, a protocol stack, and an application to
be useful. All that plus a PCB design is a considerable project, and
you need at least 2 working units for an end-to-end connection.

I'm very hard pressed for time, around 3 weeks. I did not know building
an ethernet module is so hard.

Pardon the bluntness, but you're headed for failure if you try to tackle
this from scratch in 3 weeks, having not selected a microcontroller or
Ethernet controller, written the software, or have a ready PCB design.
To achieve your goal, the best bet is to wire modules together; the more
turnkey the better.

The most turnkey option will be a dev board for a microcontroller that
has integrated Ethernet with MII as it's primary output. It will likely
come complete with working reference driver code, an IP protocol stack,
and sample applications; you just need to supply / replace the PHY,
which you have. There are several, but Freescale's Coldfire comes to
mind. I'm sure you'll find a suitable dev board here:
http://www.google.com/search?q=+site:www.freescale.com+coldfire+mii
They can be bought someplace like http://www.digikey.com

The next best option would be to modify the NICholas board, and wire it
between a micro of your choosing and the PHY you're testing. If you
pick Atmel's AVR, and if Fred will accommodate with his old PDF docs and
his published programs, you *might* get this working in 3 weeks, but
probably not in your spare time.
 
A

Ant_Magma

Jan 1, 1970
0
Perhaps you could explain what you're trying to achieve... The original
post seemed like you're trying to create <something> that connects to
powerline networking. It also seems like you're focused on testing /
proof-of-concept for the powerline technology.


I'm trying to interface with my Belfuse powerline module mentioned in
my first post. This module uses MII interface that's why i need an
ethernet module that is able to communicate with the MAC in my
powerline module.

The whole project is to use the Bel powerline module to communication
between 2 PCs. Since the PL module supports MII/GPSI interface and MII
Host/DTE interface, i need an ethernet PHY to connect the module to the
both PC's network card, like this:

PC1 (network card) => Ethernet PHY => PL module => Power line => PL
module => Ethernet PHY => PC2 (network card)
If you connect the PHY to an Ethernet controller, it needs a CPU, and
the CPU needs driver software, a protocol stack, and an application to
be useful. All that plus a PCB design is a considerable project, and
you need at least 2 working units for an end-to-end connection.

The powerline module contains the MAC, thus i only need to have a PHY
to connect to the network card of a PC through RJ45.

My instructor assured me that no programming was required.
Pardon the bluntness, but you're headed for failure if you try to tackle
this from scratch in 3 weeks, having not selected a microcontroller or
Ethernet controller, written the software, or have a ready PCB design.
To achieve your goal, the best bet is to wire modules together; the more
turnkey the better.

I should have had more time than i do now. But that's another story for
another day.

I have in my possession now 2 Micrel KS8721B ethernet phy transceiver
and all of its components. So now i plan to use this to build my
ethernet module.
The next best option would be to modify the NICholas board, and wire it
between a micro of your choosing and the PHY you're testing. If you
pick Atmel's AVR, and if Fred will accommodate with his old PDF docs and
his published programs, you *might* get this working in 3 weeks, but
probably not in your spare time.

I don't think i would need an MCU right? Since my module should be able
to act as an MCU? I'm new, please correct me if i'm wrong.
 
R

Richard H.

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ant_Magma said:
I'm trying to interface with my Belfuse powerline module mentioned in
my first post. This module uses MII interface that's why i need an
ethernet module that is able to communicate with the MAC in my
powerline module.

The whole project is to use the Bel powerline module to communication
between 2 PCs. Since the PL module supports MII/GPSI interface and MII
Host/DTE interface, i need an ethernet PHY to connect the module to the
both PC's network card, like this:

PC1 (network card) => Ethernet PHY => PL module => Power line => PL
module => Ethernet PHY => PC2 (network card)

Ah. You are making an Ethernet PHY converter - this should not require
an Ethernet controller. (The PC's NIC is serving this function.)

From the rough info on the BelFuse site, you were headed down the right
path making a simple board with the Micrel PHY. What you will end up
with is PowerlineModule<->MII<->10/100 PHY<->cable<->PC NIC.

The PCB could be simple if the pins are mirrored on the two MII devices,
otherwise you'll need 2 layers to "roll" the MII signals.

I have in my possession now 2 Micrel KS8721B ethernet phy transceiver
and all of its components. So now i plan to use this to build my
ethernet module.

I don't think i would need an MCU right? Since my module should be able
to act as an MCU? I'm new, please correct me if i'm wrong.

Right. You'd be using the MII as the "handoff point" between the
back-to-back PHY modules. The PC's Ethernet card and CPU will be doing
the meaningful work.

This sounds much more viable for your timeline.
 
A

Ant_Magma

Jan 1, 1970
0
Richard said:
Ah. You are making an Ethernet PHY converter - this should not require
an Ethernet controller. (The PC's NIC is serving this function.)

From the rough info on the BelFuse site, you were headed down the right
path making a simple board with the Micrel PHY. What you will end up
with is PowerlineModule<->MII<->10/100 PHY<->cable<->PC NIC.

The PCB could be simple if the pins are mirrored on the two MII devices,
otherwise you'll need 2 layers to "roll" the MII signals.



Right. You'd be using the MII as the "handoff point" between the
back-to-back PHY modules. The PC's Ethernet card and CPU will be doing
the meaningful work.

This sounds much more viable for your timeline.

You don't know how relieved i am to get an assuarance from someone else
that it's possible. Thank you Richard =)
 
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