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Re: Strange problem with low energy light bulb

E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Phil said:
"Albert Manfredi"
"Phil Allison"

** You are very ignorant.

The EU has announced an impending ban on incandescent lamps in the next two
years or so.

There is as yet no Directive.

I've seem some sensible moves towards banning just 'inefficient' incandescents
i.e standard tungsten filament types. It would be crazy to eliminate halogens.

Graham
 
K

Karl Uppiano

Jan 1, 1970
0
CFLs are useful in some applications; I use them, but they aren't for
everything. Pity that the typically scientifically clueless politicians are
attempting to take yet another decision from us. Freedom goes chip, chip,
chip.

I would like to see a "dust to dust" comparison of typical incandescents
with CFLs and see just what the total resource balance is from raw
materials, to manufacturing, to total average operational lifetime and
finally, disposal.

CFLs have some glass (coated with some kind of fluorescent material),
plastic and metal bases, and electronics. They are considerably more
complicated to dispose of cleanly than a simple glass bulb with a bit of
metal in it.
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Karl Uppiano"
CFLs are useful in some applications; I use them, but they aren't for
everything. Pity that the typically scientifically clueless politicians
are attempting to take yet another decision from us. Freedom goes chip,
chip, chip.

I would like to see a "dust to dust" comparison of typical incandescents
with CFLs and see just what the total resource balance is from raw
materials, to manufacturing, to total average operational lifetime and
finally, disposal.

CFLs have some glass (coated with some kind of fluorescent material),
plastic and metal bases, and electronics. They are considerably more
complicated to dispose of cleanly than a simple glass bulb with a bit of
metal in it.


** You left out the *BIG* one.

All CFLs ( in common with all fluoros) contain mercury - claimed to be
about 10 mg of the highly toxic stuff in each one.

The EU is about to completely ban the import and export of mercury using the
RoHS legislation, excepting only certain approved uses - like bloody
billions of CFLs in private homes !!

Insane.



......... Phil
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Phil said:
"Karl Uppiano"

** You left out the *BIG* one.

All CFLs ( in common with all fluoros) contain mercury - claimed to be
about 10 mg of the highly toxic stuff in each one.

More like 4mg.

Philips is now using 2mg IIRC.

Graham
 
K

Karl Uppiano

Jan 1, 1970
0
Phil Allison said:
"Karl Uppiano"


** You left out the *BIG* one.

All CFLs ( in common with all fluoros) contain mercury - claimed to be
about 10 mg of the highly toxic stuff in each one.

What is the mercury used for?
The EU is about to completely ban the import and export of mercury using
the RoHS legislation, excepting only certain approved uses - like
bloody billions of CFLs in private homes !!

If it weren't for the disastrous unintended consequences, most legislation
would have no effect at all.

Perhaps, but they'll think they made a difference when solar cycle begins to
decline again, and the planet starts to cool off again.
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Karl Uppiano"
"Phil Allison"
What is the mercury used for?


** You stupid or something ??

What the hell do you think a fluoro light really is ?

Go look it up - fool.



........ Phil
 
J

JANA

Jan 1, 1970
0
I just found out something this morning with the policies of these CFL
lamps. The governments are going to put in place programs for the handling
and disposal of the warn out and damaged CFL's. It seems that they have no
idea at this time of what this plan will be. One speculation is that they
will be sending them off to a third world country to be disposed of.

Apparently, it has been figured out that the cost of the plan is going to be
far greater than if they left things alone! And, they will be adding a worse
and different type of pollution problem to deal with.

This plan is being enforced in all of North America, and most of the
Commonwealth countries around the world. From what I heard, they want the
general public and businesses to use less electricity, so that more can be
sold to large industries for manufacturing. They will also be able to raise
the price per kw/hr without the public noticing it, because they will be
using a little less.

Another issue that gets to me is the one with the new hybrid cars, and
ethanol. This is a long issue, but I will make a short comment.

After about 4 to 6 years with an average use of about 16,000 to 20,000 km
per year, the batteries in the hybrid cars will have to be changed. There is
going to be a huge disposal problem with these. The chemicals used in
battery technology is some of the worse kinds for the environment.

As for the consumer, if he wants to keep his car, the battery replacement
cost is going to be in the average range of $6000 US. If he trades his car
with the used batteries, this cost will be deducted from the trade-in value.
If you calculate the usage cost of fuel for the average person, this
approach does not pay!

When making ethanol fuel from corn, the energy used, is more than what can
be had from the ethanol. The pollution caused from burning ethanol is worse
than from petrol. The chemicals released from the burned ethanol are
dangerous for people with respiratory problems. These chemicals are also
harmful to plant life.


--

JANA
_____



JANA said:
If the switch that is series with the light bulb has a night light in it,
the current pass of the night light will cause the CFL to flicker.

If the CFL is connected to a switch that is electronic, the small leakage
of
the electronics will cause the CFL to flicker or in some cases to not turn
off.

Regular CFL's cannot be used on standard light dimmers and many of the
electronic timers. This is a big inconvenience for many people.

When regular lamps become unavailable, I can see a lot of problems with
these new types of lamps. The biggest one will be the pollution from
their
disposal. They use mercury, phosphors, and many types of materials that
are
very harmful for the environment. There is also the electronics circuit
board, which contain components that have the same recycling problem as
used
in most electronics. Even though they last longer, when they are
eventually
put out in to the garbage, they will eventually end up in the land fills.
They are going to be a very big problem compared to the simple light bulb
that was made of simple glass and metals.

Regular light bulb materials are about 85% recyclable. There are almost no
materials in these that are bad for the environment. Most CFL's materials
are not recyclable, and their materials are very polluting.

It looks very strong that the government is pushing the CFL's to save some
electricity to sell to large industry. This is the only answer that is
logical. There are NO green house gasses from using regular light bulbs.
When more electricity is sold to industry, the pollution problems from its
generation will actually increase, unless the generation is from water
power, or nuclear power.

These are my (well known) views also, but I fear we are squeaking like
little lost mice in the dark ...

The general public are not told - and would not understand anyway - the
wider implications of these knee-jerk government interventions in our lives.
All too often, they are poorly thought through, and are dreamed up as a
response to the latest bit of pseudo science to hit the news stands. At the
moment, anything with the words 'green' or 'eco' or 'environment' or 'global
warming' are fair game for this sort of nonsense, and to add to its
'validity' in the public's eyes, they've already started inventing new bits
of techno-babble like 'carbon footprint' and 'carbon offsetting' to justify
what amounts to little more than opinions by a vociferous band of scientists
getting paid large amounts of money and credibility ratings, to promote the
government line. As you say, these CFLs are just trading one form of alleged
pollution, for another definite one ...

Arfa

Arfa
 
J

JANA

Jan 1, 1970
0
I had a reason to cross post. The question was in many other groups, and
there is a serious problem with the new regulations concerning the CFL's.

This was a small item, and there was no harm done. I had many positive
responses in my favour from this post. I guess you are in favour of the
pollution problems that these CFL's will be causing.

Just click on the "Next" button if you feel annoyed!

--

JANA
_____


JANA wrote on 6/26/07 7:50 AM:
If the switch that is series with the light bulb has a night light in it,
the current pass of the night light will cause the CFL to flicker.
<<SNIP>>

Couldn't you think of any more newsgroups to cross-post to???
24hoursupport.helpdesk,
aus.electronics,
misc.invest.stocks,
rec.audio.tech,
sci.electronics.basics,
sci.electronics.components,
sci.electronics.repair,
sci.engr.television.advanced
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
JANA said:
I just found out something this morning with the policies of these CFL
lamps. The governments are going to put in place programs for the handling
and disposal of the warn out and damaged CFL's. It seems that they have no
idea at this time of what this plan will be.

In Europe it's called WEEE but it's fucked up.
One speculation is that they will be sending them off to a third world country
to be disposed of.

You're an idiot.

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
JANA said:
As for the consumer, if he wants to keep his car, the battery replacement
cost is going to be in the average range of $6000 US. If he trades his car
with the used batteries, this cost will be deducted from the trade-in value.

The simple and obvious way to deal with this is by leasing the battery, not
owning it.

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
JANA said:
When making ethanol fuel from corn, the energy used, is more than what can
be had from the ethanol.

You're full of crap aren't you ?

The pollution caused from burning ethanol is worse
than from petrol.

Utter nonsense.

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
JANA said:
I had a reason to cross post. The question was in many other groups, and
there is a serious problem with the new regulations concerning the CFL's.

There are no regulations yet.

Graham
 
K

Karl Uppiano

Jan 1, 1970
0
Phil Allison said:
"Karl Uppiano"
"Phil Allison"


** You stupid or something ??

What the hell do you think a fluoro light really is ?

Go look it up - fool.

You sure wasted a hell of a lot of spit saying "it's a mercury vapor light".
Asshole.
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Karl Up Himself Fuckwit Piano"

You sure wasted a hell of a lot of spit saying "it's a mercury vapor
light".


** Proves what a know nothing IDIOT you are, yet again.

PISS OFF !!

Asshole.



......... Phil
 
C

clifto

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ron said:
"Vacuum filled," oh how I enjoy that one. It evokes the image of
someone pouring stuff form this bottle of "vacuum" into each
light bulb.

However, I do believe it might be a bit more proper to say the
bulbs are (or have been) evacuated. <G>

As long as you don't say something vacuous...
 
K

Karl Uppiano

Jan 1, 1970
0
Phil Allison said:
"Karl Up Himself Fuckwit Piano"




** Proves what a know nothing IDIOT you are, yet again.

PISS OFF !!

Asshole.

Does anybody know what the hell set this guy off? I asked a simple question,
not really prepared for an ad-hominem attack. I figured I wasn't the only
person on these NG that might benefit from what I thought was probably a
simple answer.

I did look it up, and after wading through article after article repeating
the exact same environmentalist hand-wringing about how toxic this naturally
occurring metal is, I finally found an explanation of its role in
fluorescent lamps:

Fluorescent lamps *are* mercury vapor lamps, although the vapor pressure in
fluorescents is different from the bright blue-white lamps traditionally
called "mercury vapor lamps". The electric arc in the tube excites the
electrons in the mercury vapor atoms so that when they drop back to their
base level, they emit photons, primarily in the ultraviolet energy range,
which strike the phosphor coating on the inside of the tube, exciting the
electrons in the phosphor atoms so that when they drop back to their base
level, they emit visible photons. Any number of gases could be used inside
the tube, but mercury has been used traditionally in fluorescent lamps. Some
newer lamps use less mercury, in favor of alternative elements. Of course
there are trade-offs, such as cost and performance.

My original question about mercury basically had to do with current
practices: Whether it was, in fact, the gas of choice for CFLs. I thought it
might be possible that it had some other use that I was not aware of. I
guess I crossed some invisible line by asking about it.
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Karl Up Himself Fuckwit Piano"
Does anybody know what the hell set this guy off?


** Calling me an "asshole" for exposing you as a blatant FAKE did it.


Fluorescent lamps *are* mercury vapor lamps, although the vapor pressure
in fluorescents is different from the bright blue-white lamps
traditionally called "mercury vapor lamps". The electric arc in the tube
excites the electrons in the mercury vapor atoms so that when they drop
back to their base level, they emit photons, primarily in the ultraviolet
energy range, which strike the phosphor coating on the inside of the tube,
exciting the electrons in the phosphor atoms so that when they drop back
to their base level, they emit visible photons. Any number of gases could
be used inside the tube,


** Long as there is plenty of mercury vapour - ASSHOLE.

Proves what a know nothing IDIOT you are, yet again.

PISS OFF !!

Google Groper Asshole.

Learn to spell anytime, too.





......... Phil
 
M

Mr.T

Jan 1, 1970
0
Arny Krueger said:
However, I've seen situations where CFL's outlast incadescents by 20:1.

Wow, I 'm jealous. I've given up on them after using about 20 or 30 over the
last 10 years. None lasted any longer than a cheap incandescent, most lasted
less, a few even DOA. But the kicker is that a standard fluoro tube always
lasts me ten times as long, in the same application, give a better spread of
light, and the same power savings.
The choice is simple in most cases AFAIC, and it's certainly not compact
fluoro's.
This is a very flawed argument. Industry is going to get the power they
need.

Not if the increase in generating capacity continues to lag the increase in
demand, as it is doing in many areas of Australia since privatisation.
However industry commonly uses standard fluoro tubes already, so them
changing to compact fluoro's would be a backward step. And the power savings
from residential properties is only going to be a small percentage of total
power use. A typical case of governments pretending to do something about a
problem, while it continues to get worse.
They don't buy power for the fun of it.

Nobody does. Blackouts/brownouts still happen.

MrT.
 
M

Mr.T

Jan 1, 1970
0
Depends on state. Most space/water heating in Victoria is natural gas.
Queensland/NT use a lot of solar hot water, with minimal requirement for
space heating. Cooling is their obvious demand, which of course is electric,
ignoring passive insulation etc.
That'll make using less energy easy then.

Is there a lot of coal generated electricity and if so is the coal of local
origin ?

Yes, mostly. Some hydro electricity, and some gas fired electricity. A
miniscule amount of solar and wind electricity, but that is increasing.
No nuclear yet.

MrT.
 
K

Karl Uppiano

Jan 1, 1970
0
Phil isn't very helpful. Can anyone else explain where I went wrong?
 
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