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Re: Strange problem with low energy light bulb

E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Arfa said:
What happens to all the 'waste' heat produced in vacuum "filled" bulbs that
used to be, if not still are, produced for garden use ?

What vacuum ?

It can't be radiated
into the atmosphere, as the envelope is substantially cold to the touch.
Does the fact that it must be hanging around in the vicinity of the
filament, modify the power consumption of the lamp compared to its light
output ? Does this make it a low(er) energy lamp? Why does the heat from the
anode of a power tube readily radiate across the vacuum, but the heat from
the filament of a vacuum light bulb seems not to? d;~}

Both do. It's called infra red radiation.

There's also conduction too.

Graham
 
A

Arfa Daily

Jan 1, 1970
0
Eeyore said:
What vacuum ?



Both do. It's called infra red radiation.

There's also conduction too.

Graham

Agreed that *should* be the case, but the fact is that the envelope of a
vacuum light bulb remains substantially cold in use, whilst a 6L6's envelope
will take the skin off your fingertips after a few minutes use ...

Arfa
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Half a Brain Daily"

Agreed that *should* be the case, but the fact is that the envelope of a
vacuum light bulb remains substantially cold in use,


** Only true if the bulb is made from a special grade of quartz glass with
very low IR absorption.

Eg: " Infrasil ".

whilst a 6L6's envelope will take the skin off your fingertips after a few
minutes use ...


** Made with IR absorbing glass, as are nearly all light bulbs.

Some low powered lamps and most "pilot " bulbs are vacuum lamps and they get
damn hot.



....... Phil
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Arfa said:
vacuum, but the >> heat from the filament of a vacuum light bulb seems not
to? d;~}


Agreed that *should* be the case, but the fact is that the envelope of a
vacuum light bulb remains substantially cold in use, whilst a 6L6's envelope
will take the skin off your fingertips after a few minutes use ...

What lighbulbs have *vacuums* in the bulb ? It's normally filled with a
non-reactive gas mixture.

Graham
 
L

Lostgallifreyan

Jan 1, 1970
0
I disagree totally. Furthermore an incandescent lamp adds heat at
ceiling level usually where it is useless for warming a room.

Mostly radiant, so with reflectors, or high efficiency white
reflective surfaces, a lot of it can be reflected down. What little goes
upwards might help (minimally) to reduce heating requirements for people in
rooms above.
LED lamps are currently hugely expensive and the light they create is
even wierder than CFLs. No, CFLs do fine at this.

That's true, about LED light, but that's exactly what will make it
attractive to many. What's also vital is that good colour rendering can be
had with RGB that is much easier to filter out, which should please the
astronomers, as well as those who need more efficient whitelight sources.
CFL's on the other hand, have a light quality that is far harder to control
than LED's and LED's in the end will be more appealing, easy to dim,
therfore easy to get different colours immediately on demand in a way that
no previous tech has allowed. They will become enormously popular.
I happen to disagree with simply 'banning incandescent bulbs' but
that's more from a libertarian perspective than anything else.

Banning incandescents totally would also have the effect of banning
modern high efficiency halogens too, some of which currently can be
twice as efficient as standard tungsten incandescents and both Philips
and GE have plans to improve this figure further still.

Agreed, I think that it is a technology that will always find uses, and
banning it before it's reached the best possible development would be daft.
Anyway, as most lamps have special characteristics that are suited to
certain tasks, industrial process use won't be banned, I think. It's the
general long-term human environmental lighting that really needs to be
thought through because the bulk consumption is there.

The main thing is that govt reactions with no engineering thought behind
them need to be stopped, and I hope that some of the smarter politicos read
Usenet threads like this one. They could save SO much time, as they're up
to date, filled with various opinions and facts, and if govt wants to find
people who discuss this stuff they should go where they can find it
naturally occuring, instead of listening to pundits with private agendas
whispering in their ears, or just going for a big media news-story to steer
their course by.
 
A

Arfa Daily

Jan 1, 1970
0
Phil Allison said:
"Half a Brain Daily"




** Only true if the bulb is made from a special grade of quartz glass with
very low IR absorption.

Eg: " Infrasil ".




** Made with IR absorbing glass, as are nearly all light bulbs.

Some low powered lamps and most "pilot " bulbs are vacuum lamps and they
get damn hot.



...... Phil
Ok, I'll buy that.

Arfa
 
A

Arny Krueger

Jan 1, 1970
0
Fallicy #1 - all CFL's are the same. Right now, they are a moving target as
the designs of their electronics packages becomes more sophisticated and
purpose-driven.

Dimmable CFL's are available in enough different wattages to be useful in a
wide variety of applications.

True that disposal is more critical especially because of the the mercury.
However, I've seen situations where CFL's outlast incadescents by 20:1.


They are both primarily made up of glass, which is recylcliable.

This is a very flawed argument. Industry is going to get the power they
need. They don't buy power for the fun of it.

Mixed bag.
Quite apart from the problems of disposing of old CFLs, I
question the whole principle of Low Energy lighting.

In the summer, less heat means less need for air conditioning. In the
winter, less heat from electricity for lighting may have to be offset to
keep the rooms at the same temperature, but space heating often comes from
more efficient sources. Electricity generation has about 70% waste back at
the generating plant, plus significant losses due to transmission and
distribution. Natural gas doesn't have the 70% conversion cost, but it does
have some losses in transmission and distribution.
If
you have a conventional bulb, much of the energy output
is in the form of heat, which will help heat the room,
and consequently will reduce the need for other heating,
central or otherwise.

Only surely true in the winter. Even in the winter, space heating generally
comes by a more efficient path that was detailed above.
Putting in a low-energy lamp mean
that there is less heat being put into the room, and
consequently, more heat has to be supplied externally.

Clearly not true at all if you are cooling the room, which is true in maybe
90% of the US in the summer.
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Arny Krueger"
Fallicy #1 - all CFL's are the same.

** No-one said that.

Total red herring anyhow.

Dimmable CFL's are available in enough different wattages to be useful in
a wide variety of applications.


** Shame they are prohibitively more expensive and hard to find.

True that disposal is more critical especially because of the the
mercury. However, I've seen situations where CFL's outlast incadescents by
20:1.


** Non sequitur - most folk have seen the reverse far more often.

They are both primarily made up of glass, which is recylcliable.


** Nice " selecting the evidence " fallacy.

Only surely true in the winter. Even in the winter, space heating
generally comes by a more efficient path that was detailed above.


** More example selecting.

Homes in Australia are mostly all electric.

Clearly not true at all if you are cooling the room, which is true in
maybe 90% of the US in the summer.


** Domestic lighting is only used at night, when a little extra heat is
mostly welcome.

Reducing night time electricity demand by a few percent ( all changing bulbs
to CFLs can manage ) has no effect on coal usage or CO2 production.

There is no overall economic or CO2 advantage to be had by making CFL use
compulsory.

There are serious hazards risks in so doing - particularly home fires
which are notoriously fatal.

Bad idea, dreamt up by ego tripping, greenie fuckwits.



......... Phil
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Phil said:
Homes in Australia are mostly all electric.

That'll make using less energy easy then.

Is there a lot of coal generated electricity and if so is the coal of local
origin ?

Graham
 
A

Arny Krueger

Jan 1, 1970
0
Agreed that *should* be the case, but the fact is that
the envelope of a vacuum light bulb remains substantially
cold in use,

Maybe a really low-wattage bulb. But at 50 watts and up, you won't
comfortably unscrew a hot bulb with your bare fingers.
 
A

Albert Manfredi

Jan 1, 1970
0
Phil Allison said:
** Shame they are prohibitively more expensive and hard to find.

I've so far only seen the 3-way variety. Not the ones dimmable by triac
(the normal infinitetly variable dimmers we are used to, that only work
with incandescent bulbs).
** Non sequitur - most folk have seen the reverse far more often.

Most folks? I would suspect infant mortality if the fluorescent has
anywhere close to as short a life as an incandescent. Mine have lasted
for years and years in every case.
** More example selecting.

Well, heating a room, in summer, even at night, is not generally a good
thing. And it's certainly true that electic resistive heat is not very
efficient. So on both counts, the heat from incadescent bulbs is hardly
a "feature."
Reducing night time electricity demand by a few percent ( all changing
bulbs to CFLs can manage ) has no effect on coal usage or CO2
production.

There is no overall economic or CO2 advantage to be had by making CFL
use compulsory.

So far, compulsory is only in Australia. But I'd say that light bulbs
constitute a large load, especially in homes that use gas for their
furnace and kitchen. In such homes, only heavy appliances or hair dryers
require more than 100 watts or so, yet for light bulbs, that's common.
And there are many light bulbs.

At night, with bulbs lit, a typical home probably uses the equivalent of
one or two hair dryers, kept running constantly for hours and hours.
Hardly a trivial load. Makes a lot more sense to clamp down on that
load, than to get all compulsive about DTV set-top boxes, as the EU has
done.

Bert
 
R

Ron Capik

Jan 1, 1970
0
Arfa said:
< ...snip... >


Maplins do a candle bulb that's vacuum filled. Also, see info on vacuum
bulbs at

http://members.misty.com/don/bulb1.html

Arfa

"Vacuum filled," oh how I enjoy that one. It evokes the image of
someone pouring stuff form this bottle of "vacuum" into each
light bulb.

However, I do believe it might be a bit more proper to say the
bulbs are (or have been) evacuated. <G>

[ Sorry, the pedantic devil made me do this. ]


Later...

Ron Capik
--
 
L

Lostgallifreyan

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Vacuum filled," oh how I enjoy that one. It evokes the image of
someone pouring stuff form this bottle of "vacuum" into each
light bulb.

Hell yes, and as we know that nature (allegedly) abhors a vaccuum, that
someone will really have to press the stuff in there hard. >:)
 
R

Ray King

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi,
The CFL movement is not just USA. Almost every country ( no opec countries
to my knowledge) that is energy conscious is changing to CFL's. Even Cuba.
The difference is the military inters your home and removes all of the
incandescent bulbs and replaces them with CFL's made at a factory located
near the Havana airport.
Ray
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Albert Manfredi"
"Phil Allison"
Most folks?


** Yes.

( snip dumb remark)

So far, compulsory is only in Australia.


** You are very ignorant.

The EU has announced an impending ban on incandescent lamps in the next two
years or so.

Same goes for Australia, New Zealand and some US states.

But I'd say that light bulbs constitute a large load,


** Domestic use light bulbs do not.

At night, with bulbs lit, a typical home probably uses the equivalent of
one or two hair dryers, kept running constantly for hours and hours.
Hardly a trivial load.


** The major loads in a home are water heaters, fridges, stoves and air
conditioners.

Indoor light bulbs that are only used at night and only when needed are a
small load.




....... Phil
 
A

Arfa Daily

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ron Capik said:
Arfa said:
< ...snip... >


Maplins do a candle bulb that's vacuum filled. Also, see info on vacuum
bulbs at

http://members.misty.com/don/bulb1.html

Arfa

"Vacuum filled," oh how I enjoy that one. It evokes the image of
someone pouring stuff form this bottle of "vacuum" into each
light bulb.

However, I do believe it might be a bit more proper to say the
bulbs are (or have been) evacuated. <G>

[ Sorry, the pedantic devil made me do this. ]


Later...

Ron Capik
It's one of those 'odd ones' isn't it ? Obviously "filled" is not the right
word, and "evacuated" seems a bit 'scientific'. The references to these
bulbs tend to call them "vacuum filled", so I just went along with that ...
;-)

Arfa
 
R

Ron Capik

Jan 1, 1970
0
Arfa said:
Ron Capik said:
Arfa said:
< ...snip... >


Maplins do a candle bulb that's vacuum filled. Also, see info on vacuum
bulbs at

http://members.misty.com/don/bulb1.html

Arfa

"Vacuum filled," oh how I enjoy that one. It evokes the image of
someone pouring stuff form this bottle of "vacuum" into each
light bulb.

However, I do believe it might be a bit more proper to say the
bulbs are (or have been) evacuated. <G>

[ Sorry, the pedantic devil made me do this. ]


Later...

Ron Capik
It's one of those 'odd ones' isn't it ? Obviously "filled" is not the right
word, and "evacuated" seems a bit 'scientific'. The references to these
bulbs tend to call them "vacuum filled", so I just went along with that ...
;-)

Arfa

Ahh, that so reminds me of the winning definition of "politically correct."
"" Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media,
which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a
turd by the clean end.""

So do take care as to what end of the vacuum you fill with. <G>


Later...

Ron Capik
--
 
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