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Re: Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater

  • Thread starter Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator
  • Start date
E

Edwin Pawlowski

Jan 1, 1970
0
Donna Ohl said:
Can anyone really expect to remove the anode when it needs inspection?
Why don't they provide TWO HOLES so you can add a second anode when
needed?

! Cost
2 How would you know if a new one is needed if you cant get the first one
out?
3 That plug would not come out either after years of use
 
D

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator

Jan 1, 1970
0
If you try to remove it next year, you should be able to do it

Good point. We should remove the anode every year so that it *can* be
removed when it comes time to replace it with a similarly sized one.

One thing we still need to do is attach the drainage pipe from the
Temperature & Pressure valve to near the floor in case of an overflow.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2274211119/

Is the drain pipe mandatory (can we just leave it off)?

It seems to me a drain pipe *should* be mandatory because you don't want
hot water spewing forth at eye level. However, due to configuration
changes, even with the taller tank, the old drainage tube is too long and
too close to the tank so we can't just screw the old one in. We have to
modify it somehow to make it shorter and move it away from the wood base.

QUESTION:
How many inches ABOVE the garage floor should it end?
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2030/2273228265_01c9df0f48_m.jpg

If we can end ABOVE the 18 inch wooden platform, that would be easier.
If we have to end six or so inches above the garage cement floor, that
would necessitate an elbow to get past the wooden base but it seems a
horizontal line can clog causing a safety hazard.

I googled but did not find any specs as to HOW MANY INCHES above either the
floor or better yet, the wooden platform, that a drain pipe must terminate.

Can someone recommend a solution?

Thanks
Donna
 
D

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator

Jan 1, 1970
0
From the photo, it looks as though you used on SS line and one copper line.
If so, that is a sure sign of a hack job.

Hi Edwin,

Again, thanks for the review of the job!

We had to make many compromises we felt a plumber would make also!
(tell us if they would have done this differently after reading why below)

The reason for the flex copper cold water input is that there wasn't room
for anything else. Given the shortest copper flex line we could find, we
couldn't fit the dialectric unions. The shortest stainless steel lines we
could find at multiple stores wouldn't bend enough.

We had to mate the cold water inlet's galvanized steel elbow to a steel
nipple to a bronze ball valve to the copper flex line to the dialectric
nipple screwed into the inlet of teh steel tank.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2274079134/

On the hot water side, likewise, there wasn't room for the copper flex plus
two dialectric unions, but at least we could mate steel directly to steel
by going from the galvanized steel elbow to a steel nipple to the steel
pipe to the dialectric nipple screwed into the steel tank.

KEY QUESTION: Would a plumber have done it differently? How?

MINOR QUESTION: Why do some stainless steel lines have brass fittings yet
they all say they are for mating steel to steel?

Donna
 
D

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator

Jan 1, 1970
0
Start thinking about replacing all of that galvanized pipe
with either copper or pex.

Hi Edwin,

Given how corroded the steel pipes were (I can't believe my kids drank
water from those pipes!), maybe we'll try to replace all our plumbing when
the weather warms up (Bill is on the roof right now doing the shingles
which blew off in the last storm).

It seems like an easy job for the piping under the crawl space.

But it seems difficult for the piping hidden in the wall.
(Do we have to rip the walls apart?)

And the pipes under the driveway to the main water meter.
(Do we have to break open the driveway?)

Is replacing the galvanized pipes with copper a do-it-yourself job Billa nd
I can do together?

Donna
 
V

Vic Smith

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Hallerb,

It was disgusting how corroded the *inside* of the galvanized pipes were!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273250265/
That's not corrosion. It's mineral scale. Stone, basically.
We had to reuse the 3/4 inch galvanized elbows.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273268515/

Why? Because we just couldn't get them off no matter how much we twisted!

We had to put Jack's stands against the wall just to hold it back.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273268509/

The horizontal pipe kept bending and twisting with every application of
force.
An 18" or 24"pipe wrench taking a bite on that pipe would have
prevented that. You need to see how a plumber does it. Those ells
would come off easily enough. Don't need jackstands, though that was
creative, I must say. Good for you. You have initiative.
BTW, older pipes were sometimes assembled with a hardening dope.
Whacking the joint repeatedly with a hammer usually breaks the bond.
Three questions came up that we'd like to ask:

1. We could easily twist the horizontal galvanized pipe; but how would we
replace this corroded pipe since it apparently connects to an elbow
*inside* the wall?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273268515/
If the flow is ok, don't worry about it. You never saw inside that
pipe, and it may very well be fairly unrestricted. Scale forms more
at fittings, where the water changes direction, or becomes turbulent.
If the pipe connects to an ell inside the wall, you would have to
knock out the wall to get a bite on the ell with a wrench to prevent
the possibility of breaking a pipe. If the pipe goes into a tee (for
example the run continues to feed elsewhere) you can probably just
twist it out. Just remember that one has to continue replacing if
anything screws up.
2. Could/should we have just hack sawed the horizontal galvanized pipe and
rethreaded somehow (it's leaking very slightly from where the corroded
threads meet the new steel nipple)?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273262551/
Most likely you didn't crank it in enough, or the ell threads were
fouled with hardened dope. That's a good reason to replace ells.
OTOH the external pipe threads can often be cleaned of old dope and
inserted further than before into the fitting, making up for any
corrosion.
If the leak doesn't stop, you'll have to redo that. There may be
remedies for the leak, but I can't recommend any.
3. Is our cold water shut off valve too close to the hot vent flue for
safety?
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2385/2274079134_7986c459d6_m.jpg
Still don't know why you used a lever valve. The least you could have
done was to install the valve with lever away from the vent, 90
degrees rotated from where it is.
I doubt it's an issue though, unless the valve has plastic that can
melt. See how hot it gets after a heater run.
Please advise as this job brought up more questions than answers!
Donna
http://www.flickr.com/donnaohl

Except for the leak, you did fine. Don't overthink it. Galvanized
pipes can easily last 50 years. The pipes in my house are that old
and in fine shape, but perhaps restricted a bit with scale.
If you decide to replace them with copper or PEX, you can no doubt do
that yourself, since you are willing to study how. It will be tougher
than a water heater though.
Somebody mentioned the gas flex you used, and you should be absolutely
certain you've done that safely. I have used only black pipe for gas,
so don't know about the flex fittings, except I use the new, certified
ones when I replace a range. There was a batch of faulty gas flex
hoses installed on ranges that caused some explosions/deaths, so check
into that too.

--Vic
 
D

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator

Jan 1, 1970
0
I can't believe this thread is still going after what three weeks?

Hi Meat Plow,

There are more questions now, after having done the job, than there were in
the beginning, even though I read a dozen how to's, I posted my
step-by-step guide, I read a half-dozen PDFs on specifications, etc.

It seems all the required information is not in any one place (yet).

For example, unanswered questions which remain are:

Q1: Can we terminate the drain pipe above the wooden base (easier) or must
we terminate (how many) inches above the cement floor (necessitating a
short elbowed horizontal run)?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2274211119/

Q2: Is it a code requirement to replace the incoming yellow gas lines?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273276741/

Q3: Since the old drain valve (predictably) snapped in half (causing most
of the installation problems we saw),
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273262535/
and since Sears personnel said the drain valve can not be removed, do you
really remove and replace the new drain valve with a brass one (we opted
not because the store said it was unremovable)?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273262545/

Q5: How *tight* should the earthquake straps be (the originals were loose)?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273250269/

Q6: How much space should be left between the walls and the heater?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2275029488/

Q7: Must we use a sheet-metal screw or is hand tight (it's very tight) good
enough for the vent flue?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2274085488/

Donna
 
D

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator

Jan 1, 1970
0
3 That plug would not come out either after years of use

Hi Edwin,

Good point! It's almost impossible to remove the sacrificial anode!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2274085498/

Another question we had was whether or not to buy a new anode TODAY so that
we'd have it in stock.

Is it hard to find a new anode for any particular water heater, years after
it's built?

I would guess the length is all that really matters (shorter than the tank)
and not necessarily the specific model of the water heater per se.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2274079124/

Do most people just buy a replacement anode by length?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273991351/

Donna
 
N

N8N

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Edwin,

Good point! It's almost impossible to remove the sacrificial anode!http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2274085498/

If you try to remove it next year, you should be able to do it
easily. It might be a two person job, but even on my 20-year old old
water heater I could do it. I did need an appropriately sized socket
(I think 1-1/16" or 1-1/8"? I forget) a heavy 3/4" drive breaker bar
and a 36" long "cheater pipe," but it came out. The second person is
to hold the tank while you're reefing on it, and it helps to leave the
tank mostly full of water to add weight (but make sure that the water
is below the level of the T&P valve, so it doesn't shoot out when you
finally remove the anode.) I did have some concerns about cracking
the bung off the tank, but I figured it was one of those things, if it
broke it needed to be replaced anyway. I got lucky and it didn't. A
new tank should not have this issue.

Putting some pipe dope or pipe tape on the anode's threads will help
keep it from corroding so between that and R&Ring it every year it
shouldn't be a major issue. The dope/tape will not cause any problems
with nonconductivity, enough of the threads will bite through the dope/
tape to provide a solid electrical connection.
Another question we had was whether or not to buy a new anode TODAY so that
we'd have it in stock.

Is it hard to find a new anode for any particular water heater, years after
it's built?

Nope, there are only a couple basic styles. I wouldn't worry about it
until it shows signs of getting close to the wire.
I would guess the length is all that really matters (shorter than the tank)
and not necessarily the specific model of the water heater per se.http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2274079124/

Do most people just buy a replacement anode by length?http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273991351/

Donna

yes. There are two considerations - whether you have a hex head or
combo style anode and whether or not you have restricted overhead
space. If you have enough room to pull the anode completely out
without bending it you can use a standard one. If you don't you will
need to buy a slightly more expensive segmented one (basically just a
standard anode turned down every foot or so to allow it to be bent and
straightened) I bought mine from waterheaterrescue.com simply because
the only other source I could find for magnesium replacement anodes
was direct from Rheem and WHR had a better price.

nate
 
M

Meat Plow

Jan 1, 1970
0
! Cost
2 How would you know if a new one is needed if you cant get the first one
out?
3 That plug would not come out either after years of use

I can't believe this thread is still going after what three weeks?
 
J

James Sweet

Jan 1, 1970
0
Looking at the nicely packaged yellow gas lines, we asked EVERYONE in the
stores if we should replace and they all (multiple stores) said nobody
replaces the gas line. They said leave it so we don't introduce a leak.

So, purely for safety reasons, we didn't replace the gas line (using the
store logic).


You don't replace the black iron gas line, but you want to replace the
stainless flex whenever you replace the appliance.
 
J

James Sweet

Jan 1, 1970
0
Given how corroded the steel pipes were (I can't believe my kids drank
water from those pipes!), maybe we'll try to replace all our plumbing when
the weather warms up (Bill is on the roof right now doing the shingles
which blew off in the last storm).

It seems like an easy job for the piping under the crawl space.

But it seems difficult for the piping hidden in the wall.
(Do we have to rip the walls apart?)

And the pipes under the driveway to the main water meter.
(Do we have to break open the driveway?)

Is replacing the galvanized pipes with copper a do-it-yourself job Billa
nd
I can do together?


Don't forget that all that crud in the pipes was in the water to begin with,
it's gross looking, but not harmful.

Replacing the pipes is not difficult in itself, however depending on the
design and layout of the house it can be a major project to get to all the
pipes. I hate crawling around in crawl spaces, and you'll almost certainly
have to cut open some walls. If you have a full basement it will be
considerably easier.
 
E

Edwin Pawlowski

Jan 1, 1970
0
Donna Ohl said:
Looking at the nicely packaged yellow gas lines, we asked EVERYONE in the
stores if we should replace and they all (multiple stores) said nobody
replaces the gas line. They said leave it so we don't introduce a leak.

The problem with asking at the store is the average worker there knows very
little. Flex lines used to be against code in some places, then there were
required for earthquake prone locations. A call to the gas inspector will
clarify what you need. Water heaters are better than dryers, but years of
constant flex and vibration can cause cracks in the joiunts of flex lines.
 
E

Edwin Pawlowski

Jan 1, 1970
0
KEY QUESTION: Would a plumber have done it differently? How?

Plumber would have used some copper fittings and soldered the joints. He
can get exactly what is needed that way.
 
E

Edwin Pawlowski

Jan 1, 1970
0
Donna Ohl said:
It seems like an easy job for the piping under the crawl space.

But it seems difficult for the piping hidden in the wall.
(Do we have to rip the walls apart?)

And the pipes under the driveway to the main water meter.
(Do we have to break open the driveway?)

Is replacing the galvanized pipes with copper a do-it-yourself job Billa
nd
I can do together?

Donna

The problem with copper is getting it trough wall. Pex, OTOH, is much
easier to get through and with the proper tools, easier to work with.

There are ways of getting under the driveway, but you'd have to either rent
the equipment or call a plumber for that portion. Check what was used for
the main. Many years ago (mostly in the 1940's) lead pipe was common.
 
N

N8N

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Meat Plow,

There are more questions now, after having done the job, than there were in
the beginning, even though I read a dozen how to's, I posted my
step-by-step guide, I read a half-dozen PDFs on specifications, etc.

It seems all the required information is not in any one place (yet).

For example, unanswered questions which remain are:

Q1: Can we terminate the drain pipe above the wooden base (easier) or must
we terminate (how many) inches above the cement floor (necessitating a
short elbowed horizontal run)?http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2274211119/

I think it needs to be *at least* 6 inches above the floor, you don't
want it to be too high though in case you are in the room when it goes
off. I assume you have a floor drain in this room?
Q2: Is it a code requirement to replace the incoming yellow gas lines?http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273276741/

I believe every WH manufacturer recommends replacing the flex line if
the heater is replaced (that is if a flex line is used.)
Q3: Since the old drain valve (predictably) snapped in half (causing most
of the installation problems we saw),http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273262535/
and since Sears personnel said the drain valve can not be removed, do you
really remove and replace the new drain valve with a brass one (we opted
not because the store said it was unremovable)?http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273262545/

I would. Can you at least look and see if the valve looks like it is
a standard 3/4" pipe thread? If so I'd replace it. Like I mentioned
earlier, I just used a 3/4" dielectric nipple, a 3/4" NPT ball valve,
a 3/4" male NPT to male garden hose adapter, and a brass garden hose
cap to make my own drain valves (I actually have three water heaters
on my property, two in the house and one in the garage...)

I have yet to see a drain valve for a water heater that didn't screw
into the tank with a 3/4" pipe thread. I imagine the Sears rep just
told you it wasn't replaceable to keep you from messing with it.
Q5: How *tight* should the earthquake straps be (the originals were loose)?http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273250269/

don't know, they apparently aren't required anywhere I've lived.
Q6: How much space should be left between the walls and the heater?http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2275029488/

Your installation instructions should have that info.
Q7: Must we use a sheet-metal screw or is hand tight (it's very tight) good
enough for the vent flue?http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2274085488/

I'd screw it together, at least two screws per joint. Before you do
that though, check with a match to make sure it's drafting properly -
light a match and hold it in the gap between the top of the water
heater and the flue vent while the heater is burning. The flame
should go straight up or slightly in towards the center of the vent -
NEVER away from the center of the vent. If it does it is backdrafting
and whatever condition is causing that needs to be corrected.

good luck

nate
 
D

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator

Jan 1, 1970
0
I think it needs to be *at least* 6 inches above the floor, you don't
want it to be too high though in case you are in the room when it goes
off. I assume you have a floor drain in this room?

Hi Nate,
It's a garage that drains down the driveway.

This reference also says "at least" six inches off the floor.
http://www.high-performance-hvac.co...eaters/hot-water-heater-maintenance-tips.html

This one says "within" six inches of the floor:
http://www.friendlyplumber.com/plumbing101/hot_water_heater.html

I'm going to tell Bill to decide to put it at the 18 inch mark above the
elevated step; otherwise it would need a horizontal length which would be
bad.

Thanks,
Donna
 
D

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator

Jan 1, 1970
0
I have yet to see a drain valve for a water heater that didn't screw
into the tank with a 3/4" pipe thread. I imagine the Sears rep just
told you it wasn't replaceable to keep you from messing with it.

Or he didn't know and he was just hazarding a guess disguised as fact.\
This reference says they can be replaced with a ball valve.
http://www.high-performance-hvac.co...eaters/hot-water-heater-maintenance-tips.html

Your installation instructions should have that info.

THey say six inches but the old one was less than half that.
 
D

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator

Jan 1, 1970
0
Why did you remove the anode of the old heater? Just curious?

Better than curious.
I wanted to learn if the anode was corroded in which case it was a
diagnostic tool as to what caused the failure of the prior tank.

By the way, I found some requirements for the installation of the pressure
relief valve plumbing ... which must "not terminate more than 6 inches (152
mm) above the floor". Darn. Now we need to horizontalize it, creating the
chance of clog causing further danger to occupants! :(

Donna

http://codes.ohio.gov/oac/4101:3-5-01

504.6 Requirements for discharge piping. The discharge piping serving a
pressure relief valve, temperature relief valve or combination thereof
shall:
1. Not be directly connected to the drainage system.
2. Discharge through an air gap located in the same room as the water
heater.
3. Not be smaller than the diameter of the outlet of the valve served and
shall discharge full size to the air gap.
4. Serve a single relief device and shall not connect to piping serving any
other relief device or equipment.
5. Discharge to the floor, to an indirect waste receptor or to the
outdoors. Where discharging to the outdoors in areas subject to freezing,
discharge piping shall be first piped to an indirect waste receptor through
an air gap located in a conditioned area.
6. Discharge in a manner that does not cause personal injury or structural
damage.
7. Discharge to a termination point that is readily observable by the
building occupants.
8. Not be trapped.
9. Be installed so as to flow by gravity.
10. Not terminate more than 6 inches (152 mm) above the floor or waste
receptor.
11. Not have a threaded connection at the end of such piping.
12. Not have valves or tee fittings.
 
S

Stormin Mormon

Jan 1, 1970
0
I'd guess if you remove and inspect annually, that the threads don't lock
up.

Why did you want to remove the anode of the old heater? Just curious?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


I just replaced the anodes ... on two ancient (80's) water heaters


2. Even Superman couldn't would have a tough time removing mine ...
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2033/2274085498_52c3b7d618.jpg?v=0


Can anyone really expect to remove the anode when it needs inspection?
Why don't they provide TWO HOLES so you can add a second anode when needed?
 
S

Stormin Mormon

Jan 1, 1970
0
I've seen flex line for gas, and flex braided for water. Not sure it's
legal. But it sure is a lot easier than making the correct shapes of rigid
pipe nipples.

Yes, that galvanized pip should be replaced.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..



Donna Ohl said:
Let's learn from this half-day job.
Would this hot water heater R&R pass your inspection?
Why or why not?

Donna & Bill

I appears that you re-used the flex gas line. That should be replaced with
any new installation and would be a code violation in most, if not all,
places.

From the photo, it looks as though you used on SS line and one copper line.
If so, that is a sure sign of a hack job. Meantime, start thinking about
replacing all of that galvanized pip with either copper or pex.
 
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