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Re: Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater

  • Thread starter Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator
  • Start date
Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:












This has been a very informative thread. � I didn't appreciate that our
15-year old water heater (61 gallon - State / 0.55 ER) is likely on
borrowed time. � The first one in our home was replaced after just8
years (previous owner). � As someone pointed out, now is probably a good
time to start researching a replacement.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

i take a different view, after having one start leaking with house
guests coming right before christmas.

i replace mine at the time of my choosing, on my schedule.

peace of mind and lack of hassles plus no worry about water leak
damage, and can shop around for best deal, and get better efficency
from new tank and i went larger with a high output tank.

do you wait for everything you own to totally quit before replacing?

hot water tanks are low cost.

my current one is 7 years old. its on borrowed time
 
C

clams_casino

Jan 1, 1970
0
i take a different view, after having one start leaking with house
guests coming right before christmas.

i replace mine at the time of my choosing, on my schedule.

peace of mind and lack of hassles plus no worry about water leak
damage, and can shop around for best deal, and get better efficency
from new tank and i went larger with a high output tank.

do you wait for everything you own to totally quit before replacing?
Generally speaking, yes. I tend to drive cars until they get to the
point (providing regular maintenance) of requiring significant repairs
(as a second car, always maintaining a good first car).

I don't expect to replace appliances (vacuum cleaner, dish washer,
stove, refrigerator, washer, dryer, toaster, etc) until they are in
need of repair. It's at that point when I typically determine if its
cost effective to replace or repair (typically it's best to toss at that
point). I also wait for light bulbs to burn out, etc. My three lawn
mowers each last about 15 years... till they died.

What other items do you replace on a regular basis?
 
J

jim

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Vic,

There is a black rubber grommet inside the copper flex tube's brass
fittings. Maybe that's the dialectric; but it's tremendously smaller than
the fist-sized dialectric unions we bought yesterday.

Donna

If your pipes are galvanized you don't need di-electric fittings
Right and you are who certianaly not a plumber just a Mike Holmes
wannabe, if you conect copper to galvenized you better use them but
then Iam only a master plumber so what would I know
 
Blueberry doggy (I have to call her BlueberryBelle for my married Irish
lady friend wayyyyyy over yonder across the big pond) says, WOO WOO
WOOF!
cuhulin
 
E

Edwin Pawlowski

Jan 1, 1970
0
Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:

Thee are some codes as to what materials can be used. I doubt your job will
be better.

We're waiting to hear the results though. Bill should have taken his
"first" hot shower hours ago.
 
I don't expect to replace appliances (vacuum cleaner, dish washer,
stove, refrigerator, washer, dryer, toaster, etc) until they are �in
need of repair. �It's at that point when I typically determine if its
cost effective to replace or repair (typically it's best to toss at that
point). �I also wait for light bulbs to burn out, etc. � My three lawn
mowers each last about 15 years... till they died.

What other items do you replace on a regular basis?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have repaired machines my entire life, i am 51 my vans are mid 90s
but try to maintain them I dont buy new vehicles. I prefer to fix non
critical appliances

mostly i have 2 of everything so when one breaks i use the back up.

2 washers, 2 dryers, 2 vans, 2 lawn mowers, spare tools, spare
everything. if it werent for space i would have 2 hot water tanks, and
2 dishwashers

my basement where the hot water tank lives is my shop for my business,
i sell and service office equiptement.

so i really dont want a basement full of water even a foot would be
bad, and the moisture ruin inventory.

having had a hot water tank fail on christmas eve, in a snow storm
with family coming to stay i would much prefer to replace a tank early
in the morning on a spring day:)

warm dry comfy. no stress.

now lets look at the economics of tank replacement:)

DIY a 400 buck tank thats replaced in 8 years nets a cost of 50 bucks
a year.

thats less than a decent candy bar a week...........

plus the new tank has better efficency and doesnt boil when heating.
my current tank has started doing that......... wife doesnt like the
noise, it can be heard upstairs.

did you know a person who buys a brand new mid priced car every 5
years, in a lifetime spends about $250,000 just on new car purchase.

now does my 400 buck purchase compare?

incidently we have some tough to get at light fixtures here, when one
bulb burns out i replace them all. I prefer all fixtures to have
multiple bulbs, when one burns out theres still enough light to see
 
J

James Sweet

Jan 1, 1970
0
This has been a very informative thread. I didn't appreciate that our
15-year old water heater (61 gallon - State / 0.55 ER) is likely on
borrowed time. The first one in our home was replaced after just 8 years
(previous owner). As someone pointed out, now is probably a good time to
start researching a replacement.


All this talk about water heaters and I came home today to find I had no hot
water. Went out to the garage and found a puddle around the heater and the
flame was out. Fortunately it seems this time it was just a leaking joint on
the flex pipe but it's a reminder that I need to start looking at
replacements.
 
D

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator

Jan 1, 1970
0
Take extra care to get the vent right, a gas leak you'll smell, a
water leak you'll see, but an exhaust leak will just kill you.

Hi everyone,

Please take a look at the photos uploaded earlier today.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/

Let's learn from this half-day effort replacing the water heater.
We had to make a whole bunch of compromises we had not planned on!
Would our final work pass your inspection?
Why or why not (let's learn from this)?

By the way, just as you guys predicted:
- The drain valve snapped off while the tank was full of hot water
- The plumbing was corroded and broke in multiple places
- The water heater (still full of hot water) tipped over on us
- The anode had dissolved away to the bare steel rod
- The galvanized plumbing was almost completely clogged with rust
- The plumbing retrofit for the much larger heater was difficult
- The dialectric fittings and check valves were useless
etc.

And, a few things you guys didn't predict:
- We found an ancient machete hidden behind the water heater!
- Trying to save the box to put the old heater in isn't worth it
- The cold water leaked due to thread corrosion even tightly screwed on
- Hot water leaked back into the heater when the cold water was shut
- The overflow pipe wasn't installed yet due to a question for you
- We loosened sandy sediment which clogged our showerheads
etc.

Now that we're done, we have MORE QUESTIONS to ask (and hopefully we can
all get the answers together).

Take a look at the photos uploaded earlier today:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/

Let's learn from this half-day job.
Would this hot water heater R&R pass your inspection?
Why or why not?

Donna & Bill
 
N

N8N

Jan 1, 1970
0
i take a different view, after having one start leaking with house
guests coming right before christmas.

i replace mine at the time of my choosing, on my schedule.

peace of mind and lack of hassles plus no worry about water leak
damage, and can shop around for best deal, and get better efficency
from new tank and i went larger with a high output tank.

do you wait for everything you own to totally quit before replacing?

Generally, yes.
hot water tanks are low cost.

my current one is 7 years old. its on borrowed time

I guess I take a different tack; probably has to do with my upbringing
(whole family is from rural PA, very, um, frugal...) I figure
inspecting the anode regularly will tell me what I need to know about
the tank condition and I can make an informed decision from there.

You may recall from my previous posts that I just replaced the anodes
back in November on two ancient (80's) water heaters in my basement;
it turns out that they were both still in good shape despite the solar
one appearing to be near failure - the outside shell is very rusty and
looking to be in poor condition but the anode was still intact enough
that it appears it was never unprotected on the inside. Also I had
thought that the solar one was leaking intermittently but it now
appears that that was due to dry rotted condensate drain lines in the
furnace and the slope of the floor (solar HWH is located near a low
spot) repairing the furnace drain seems to have fixed the issue.

Basically, when you live in an area like I do where the housing costs
are so high, you can't afford to simply replace stuff on a schedule,
you replace it when it really needs to be replaced. I'll continue
flushing and inspecting the anode; when this anode is gone (if I'm
still living in the same place) then maybe I'll consider replacing the
tank, as it'll be 30-40 years old by then :) (and hopefully I'll be
making enough money by then that the mortgage won't be eating up half
my take-home every month)

Yes, I "shop" for light fixtures and other supplies in the "free"
section of Craigslist as well, and just bought a couple paneled doors
for $12 each from the home salvage place up in Edmonton.

I'd like to think that when it does come time for me to move out of
this house, despite the fact that I'm replacing very little, that the
new owners will still find far fewer problems than I did upon moving
in simply because I do address problems as they arise, and I do
everything I can myself so I know it's done right.

nate

(officially licensed and certified cheap b*****d)
 
D

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator

Jan 1, 1970
0
can't see your photos at work, but definitely brush a soapy water
solution over all gas connections and check for bubbles.

Hi Nate,
Yes, I personally did the check for natural-gas leaks.

Bill slathered on the TPE cream, taking care to leave the last two threads
bare, and we didn't see any bubbles with a solution of Dawn and water
brushed on with a toothbrush.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273276731/

One minor question we had for the natural gas line was whether or not to
kink the gas hose in an S-shaped curve to trap sediments before they enter
the thermostat.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273276741/

Do you arrange the gas hose in any particular manner?

Also, does anyone know the significance of the red aluminum ring around the
gas hose? Does it have any meaning?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273250275/

Donna
http://www.flickr.com/donnaohl
 
N

N8N

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi everyone,

Please take a look at the photos uploaded earlier today.http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/

Let's learn from this half-day effort replacing the water heater.
We had to make a whole bunch of compromises we had not planned on!
Would our final work pass your inspection?
Why or why not (let's learn from this)?

By the way, just as you guys predicted:
- The drain valve snapped off while the tank was full of hot water
- The plumbing was corroded and broke in multiple places
- The water heater (still full of hot water) tipped over on us
- The anode had dissolved away to the bare steel rod
- The galvanized plumbing was almost completely clogged with rust
- The plumbing retrofit for the much larger heater was difficult
- The dialectric fittings and check valves were useless
etc.

And, a few things you guys didn't predict:
- We found an ancient machete hidden behind the water heater!
- Trying to save the box to put the old heater in isn't worth it
- The cold water leaked due to thread corrosion even tightly screwed on
- Hot water leaked back into the heater when the cold water was shut
- The overflow pipe wasn't installed yet due to a question for you
- We loosened sandy sediment which clogged our showerheads
etc.

Now that we're done, we have MORE QUESTIONS to ask (and hopefully we can
all get the answers together).

Take a look at the photos uploaded earlier today:http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/

Let's learn from this half-day job.
Would this hot water heater R&R pass your inspection?
Why or why not?

Donna & Bill

can't see your photos at work, but definitely brush a soapy water
solution over all gas connections and check for bubbles.

nate
 
on energy costs, this heater was designed after the energy guide label
specs were created, thats why its energy use is under the lowest.

the intricate baffels are there to help efficency.
 
D

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator

Jan 1, 1970
0
D

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator

Jan 1, 1970
0
I just replaced the anodes ... on two ancient (80's) water heaters
it turns out that they were both still in good shape

Hi Nate,

That brings up the first (of many) questions that arose when we replaced
our hot water heater (with your help) yesterday ...

1. I agree, while replacing the altruistic anode is a "good thing" ...
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2086/2274079124_f60ec145cf.jpg?v=0

The problem I found is ...

2. Even Superman couldn't would have a tough time removing mine ...
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2033/2274085498_52c3b7d618.jpg?v=0

Given it took a pipe wrench plus a huge cheater bar to remove the anode
with the water heater removed and blocked on the ground ... and given that
any in-place plumbing and vent ducts would have severely hampered access
.... and given that a water heater isn't rigidly "mounted" ... I wonder ...

Can anyone really expect to remove the anode when it needs inspection?
Why don't they provide TWO HOLES so you can add a second anode when needed?

Donna
http://www.flickr.com/donnaohl
 
D

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator

Jan 1, 1970
0
on energy costs, this heater was designed after the energy guide label
specs were created, thats why its energy use is under the lowest.

Interesting!

The Energy Guide label for this 0.63 Energy Factor water heater:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2274085480/

Says the thermal energy factor comparison is:
This model uses 238 therms per year.
Uses least energy: 242 therms
Uses most energy: 272 therms
Only models with FHRs of 87 to 99 gallons are used in this scale.
This model's estimated yearly operating cost is: $216 dollars
Based on a 2004 US Government national average cost of 0.9100 per therm.
(41,045 btu/0.63)($0.9100/therm * 1 therm/100,000 btu) x 365 = $216/year

However, my estimated thermal energy factor is closer to:
(41,045 btu/0.63)($1.21106/therm * 1 therm/100,000 btu) x 365 = $288/year

So, the Energy Guide label is off on energy costs by a whopping 75 percent!
(I think.)

Donna
PS: I never know whether the best calculation is this way or that?
$216 / $288 * 100 = 75%
or
$288 / $216 * 100 = 133%
 
E

Edwin Pawlowski

Jan 1, 1970
0
Donna Ohl said:
Let's learn from this half-day job.
Would this hot water heater R&R pass your inspection?
Why or why not?

Donna & Bill

I appears that you re-used the flex gas line. That should be replaced with
any new installation and would be a code violation in most, if not all,
places.

From the photo, it looks as though you used on SS line and one copper line.
If so, that is a sure sign of a hack job. Meantime, start thinking about
replacing all of that galvanized pip with either copper or pex.
 
D

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator

Jan 1, 1970
0
I appears that you re-used the flex gas line. That should be replaced with
any new installation and would be a code violation in most, if not all,
places.

Hi Edwin,

Thank you! That was another of my questions!
(strangely I have more questions after the job than before).

Looking at the nicely packaged yellow gas lines, we asked EVERYONE in the
stores if we should replace and they all (multiple stores) said nobody
replaces the gas line. They said leave it so we don't introduce a leak.

So, purely for safety reasons, we didn't replace the gas line (using the
store logic).

But, we would have been happy to replace the gas line as the costs for
quality parts is miniscule in this job, given the major cost for the heater
itself.

Where do I look up our local code requirements anyway?
I went to our town site and saw they have an office but nothing on the web.

Donna
 
D

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator

Jan 1, 1970
0
all your galvanized needs replaced, when corroded that bad soon it
will leak:(

Hi Hallerb,

It was disgusting how corroded the *inside* of the galvanized pipes were!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273250265/

We had to reuse the 3/4 inch galvanized elbows.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273268515/

Why? Because we just couldn't get them off no matter how much we twisted!

We had to put Jack's stands against the wall just to hold it back.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273268509/

The horizontal pipe kept bending and twisting with every application of
force.

Three questions came up that we'd like to ask:

1. We could easily twist the horizontal galvanized pipe; but how would we
replace this corroded pipe since it apparently connects to an elbow
*inside* the wall?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273268515/

2. Could/should we have just hack sawed the horizontal galvanized pipe and
rethreaded somehow (it's leaking very slightly from where the corroded
threads meet the new steel nipple)?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273262551/

3. Is our cold water shut off valve too close to the hot vent flue for
safety?
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2385/2274079134_7986c459d6_m.jpg

Please advise as this job brought up more questions than answers!
Donna
http://www.flickr.com/donnaohl
 
D

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator

Jan 1, 1970
0
Most likely you didn't crank it in enough...
If the leak doesn't stop, you'll have to redo that.

I watched Bill crank it like crazy so it's certainly tight enough! :)

We think the threads on the 50-year old galvanized steel elbow are clogged
up and that's what is causing the slow dribble out of the cold water inlet
pipe.

We now have the confidence to tackle this job - we just were unsure how to
remove the elbow or cut the pipe or remove the pipe from the wall.
install the valve with lever away from the vent, 90
degrees rotated from where it is.
We'll do that when we figure out how to fix the slight leak above.
See how hot it gets after a heater run.
It's cold.
Galvanized pipes can easily last 50 years.
Our house was built in 1958!
Somebody mentioned the gas flex you used
We feel confident in swapping out the gas flex if that's what we should do.
Do others feel we must do that (we don't mind as parts costs are
miniscule).

We just want to do the job right.

Thanks for the advice.
One thing that is still undone is the overflow vent (we'll ask separately).

Donna
 
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