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Re: Internal wiring of USA v UK mains plug

M

Michael A. Terrell

Jan 1, 1970
0
Dave Plowman (News) said:
I've yet to see an unmarked multi-pair cable.


Where did I say it was multi-pair? I said that it was over 50
pairs. Shielded multi-pair audio cables wasn't being used for school
intercoms when this system was built, and the architect's specs called
for stranded 22 AWG Alpha twisted pair, shielded cable with a plastic
jacket. If it was multi-pair, there would be no need to tag the
individual pairs, would there?

I DID use 66 series 25 pair terminal blocks to rewire that cabinet,
so you could flip out a couple bridging clips to troubleshoot the
wiring.
--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
 
M

Michael A. Terrell

Jan 1, 1970
0
Wolfi said:
Good luck plugging in a switchable 1200/1500W electric room heater, when 1200W
just don't warm enough or a fix power 1350W type or a decent µ-wave.with 1kW
or 1.1kW *output* power, sucking about 1.5kW out of the wall.


What part of "Dedicated circuit" don't you get?


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
 
G

Gary Tait

Jan 1, 1970
0
Because initially we had been talking about wall outlets and according
plugs, with flat (US, UK) or round (most of Central Europe) contacts
and those connectors are rated 15A/130V (US) or 16A/250V (Europe).
So when talking about alternatives, we have to stay in the same
ratings range.

No, we have been mostly talking of the merits of the UK BS1363 vs the
typical US NEMA 5-15, with a noted tangent on other plugs around the world,
and outside of the typical ones in the US/UK.
 
G

Gary Tait

Jan 1, 1970
0
On Wed, 04 Jul 2007 11:05:44 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"

What types of appliances get used in Japan? High wattage? Low?
Other places?

Being as they have 100V service (rather than 120V, or 240V), they use lower
wattage appliances. I don't know how they handle high power.
 
S

Spurious Response

Jan 1, 1970
0
It takes the same amount of energy to boil a quantity of water whether
you're using a 1 kW or 3 kW kettle. Infact it would probably take less
energy with the 3kW kettle as it gets the job done quicker, which
means less losses.


You also have to account for losses at the kettle itself. They do not
transfer 100% of the energy, and the higher wattage units radiate a lot
more, so they are slightly lossy-er.

I'll stick with my infinitely (FAIAP) variable gas, thanks.
 
S

Spurious Response

Jan 1, 1970
0
Not an appliance, and in Sweden, not Japan, but I have...

It was quite obvious that I was not asking you about you.
 
S

Spurious Response

Jan 1, 1970
0
Apart from the fact that the energy used in a more powerful kettle is
slightly less, the rates in California appear to be about 12-15c/kWhr,
compared with my UK rate of 9p (~18c). The big difference in costs here
is that the climate is such that we don't need (and most of us don't
have) air- conditioning.

Paul Burke

I do not have, nor do I need AC here, near the shore. Inland becomes a
different story.
 
J

James Sweet

Jan 1, 1970
0
Gary Tait said:
Being as they have 100V service (rather than 120V, or 240V), they use
lower
wattage appliances. I don't know how they handle high power.

Do they only have 100V or is it a split 100/200V system more similar to the
US arrangement? I had assumed the latter, but I've never looked into it.
 
W

Wolfi

Jan 1, 1970
0
Am 03.07.07 19.58 schrieb Spurious Response:
If you are plugging some bent up plug into a power socket, you are an
idiot for not servicing the plug before using the product it was attached
to. Oh, and if you are seeing perfectly normal plugs coming out of an
outlet, YOU need to service the outlet.

I never said, that the compressor plug was bent at all. It is still in
original condition, so is the power outlet as well.
But it is mounted to a column inside a shop at about 1.20m height and the
shitty power connector system just isn't capable of supporting the relatively
thick, rubber insulated cables weight until it hits the floor, without letting
the plug slip out over time, until at least one spade starts losing contact.
As an additional hint: in this case, the ground pin is at the bottom, the 2
spades on top.
I'm simply reporting first hand experiences with the U.S. system, and compare
them to others with connector systems, where the removable part dives with its
housing into the receptacle to some degree.
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
Am 03.07.07 19.58 schrieb Spurious Response:

I never said, that the compressor plug was bent at all. It is still in
original condition, so is the power outlet as well.
But it is mounted to a column inside a shop at about 1.20m height and the
shitty power connector system just isn't capable of supporting the relatively
thick, rubber insulated cables weight until it hits the floor, without letting
the plug slip out over time, until at least one spade starts losing contact.
As an additional hint: in this case, the ground pin is at the bottom, the 2
spades on top.
I'm simply reporting first hand experiences with the U.S. system, and compare
them to others with connector systems, where the removable part dives with its
housing into the receptacle to some degree.

For serious stuff, use a twist-lok.

John
 
M

Michael A. Terrell

Jan 1, 1970
0
Wolfi said:
Am 03.07.07 19.58 schrieb Spurious Response:

I never said, that the compressor plug was bent at all. It is still in
original condition, so is the power outlet as well.
But it is mounted to a column inside a shop at about 1.20m height and the
shitty power connector system just isn't capable of supporting the relatively
thick, rubber insulated cables weight until it hits the floor, without letting
the plug slip out over time, until at least one spade starts losing contact.
As an additional hint: in this case, the ground pin is at the bottom, the 2
spades on top.
I'm simply reporting first hand experiences with the U.S. system, and compare
them to others with connector systems, where the removable part dives with its
housing into the receptacle to some degree.


Firsthand experience of someone who is unable to anchor a heavy cord?


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
 
T

Thomas Tornblom

Jan 1, 1970
0
Spurious Response said:
You also have to account for losses at the kettle itself. They do not
transfer 100% of the energy, and the higher wattage units radiate a lot
more, so they are slightly lossy-er.

So where does the energy that is not transfered go?

Radiant heat losses is exactly why a more powerful kettle would
consume *less*. It gets the job done quicker and the time it will
radiate heat is shorter, which makes it more efficient.
 
D

Dave Plowman (News)

Jan 1, 1970
0
You also have to account for losses at the kettle itself. They do not
transfer 100% of the energy, and the higher wattage units radiate a lot
more, so they are slightly lossy-er.

Where does the 'spare' energy go? Pretty well all of the energy is
transferred to the water. Of course a lack of insulation means some of
this is wasted.
I'll stick with my infinitely (FAIAP) variable gas, thanks.

A gas burner definitely doesn't transmit 100% of the energy to the water.

I'd say you've no experience of a 3kW electric kettle. They boil faster
than using a gas ring and of course cut off automatically. Gas also
produces moisture as it burns so makes more mess in the kitchen.
 
P

Paul Burke

Jan 1, 1970
0
Spurious said:
You also have to account for losses at the kettle itself. They do not
transfer 100% of the energy, and the higher wattage units radiate a lot
more, so they are slightly lossy-er.

I'll stick with my infinitely (FAIAP) variable gas, thanks.

Work it out. The element is entirely surrounded by the water you want to
heat. So all the energy, apart from that conducted bak into the cable,
passes into the water. Most electric kettles these days are plastic, so
not much gets throgh the sides. Rather more escapes through the top,
especially while the kettle is actually boiling- I use this energy to
preheat the teapot. So efficiency is pretty good. A more powerful kettle
is better because there is less heat lost through the top and sides when
you are heating it.

As for gas, most of the energy simply wafts round the outside of the
kettle, and never heats the water at all- it just heats the universe.
Which isn't to say that it's not generally the best way to cook.

Paul Burke
 
P

Paul Burke

Jan 1, 1970
0
John said:
We pay a sliding scale for electricity here in San Francisco, from
about 10 cents to as much as 22, nonlinear on consumption, to
encourage saving

Oy! It's the other way round here, you pay 22p/kWhr for the first N
units, then about 15p thereafter. It's supposed to cover fixed costs
like the meter (which was there years ago and must have payed for itself
many times over at that rate).
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

Jan 1, 1970
0
Where does the 'spare' energy go? Pretty well all of the energy is
transferred to the water. Of course a lack of insulation means some of
this is wasted.


A gas burner definitely doesn't transmit 100% of the energy to the water.

I'd say you've no experience of a 3kW electric kettle. They boil faster
than using a gas ring and of course cut off automatically. Gas also
produces moisture as it burns so makes more mess in the kitchen.

Modern auto-shutoff 'cordless' electric kettles are a great
convenience.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
Oy! It's the other way round here, you pay 22p/kWhr for the first N
units, then about 15p thereafter. It's supposed to cover fixed costs
like the meter (which was there years ago and must have payed for itself
many times over at that rate).

"P" is pence? Roughly 44 cents/kwh? Yikes!

Our low rate is called the "lifeline" rate, for poor people who
presumably need a modest amount of power to get along.

The great thing about this climate - chilly all the time - is that we
don't worry much about wasting gas or electricity: it all goes to heat
the house. What I really should do is arrange to recover some of the
heat in wastewater, like an outgoing/incoming heat exchanger or
something. The water comes in ice-cold.

It's going to be hot here today: 8 AM, and it's already 60F, and the
fog is burning off.

John
 
R

Robert Latest

Jan 1, 1970
0
["Followup-To:" header set to sci.electronics.design.]
John said:
What I really should do is arrange to recover some of the
heat in wastewater, like an outgoing/incoming heat exchanger or
something.

The house we're building is going to have that not for water, but for air
(outgoing warm air heats up the incoming air in a heat exchanger). This
makes a difference only in extremely well-insulated houses though.

robert
 
S

Spurious Response

Jan 1, 1970
0
Work it out. The element is entirely surrounded by the water you want to
heat.

Only foil coil immersion types. Our "kettles" over here have enclosed
heating elements under the kettle, so it would lose a bunch.
So all the energy, apart from that conducted bak into the cable,
passes into the water.

Immersion heating elements are about as efficient as one can get.

We used to place a few coiled rubber bands between two spoons, and hook
'em up, and that would boil water pretty quick too.

Gives "Direct Current" a new meaning.
Most electric kettles these days are plastic, so
not much gets throgh the sides.

Most "plastics" that can handle those temperatures also conduct heat
pretty well.
Rather more escapes through the top,
especially while the kettle is actually boiling-

Stick a lid on it. Once the water is boiling, one can reduce heat and
retain boil, another good reason for gas.
I use this energy to
preheat the teapot. So efficiency is pretty good.

I love finding uses for wafting, otherwise wasted heat.
A more powerful kettle
is better because there is less heat lost through the top and sides when
you are heating it.

A smaller "vat" has less exposed surface area, and is quite valid to
consider as a spoiler to your claim. It all comes down to using the right
heated pot for any given volume considered.

Why do you think solder pots are short and squat, and not some eight or
ten inch diameter device? It isn't just the handling issues. It has a
lot to do with conservation.
As for gas, most of the energy simply wafts round the outside of the
kettle,

When I put water on to boil, I start with *very* low heat, and most of
it hits the mark, and that which wafts, heats those same sides. The
flame barely leaves the burner head, and the gas meter barely moves, and
I boil water much better with a long slow process than a "stick a torch
to it and GO" method, so not much "spills" up the sides.

I am very lean on consumption. My carbon footprint barely exists at
all. Been riding a bike to and from work for the last twelve years.
and never heats the water at all- it just heats the universe.
Which isn't to say that it's not generally the best way to cook.

Gas is definitely the best, most controlled application of heat,
therefore is the best way to cook.

I wish microwave ovens were wattage controlled, instead of duty cycle
controlled. I would have many more uses for it then. Still, it is my
second choice. Electric burner stoves, and cooking accessories are the
most wasteful use of juice there is. The only proper electric stove
would have skillets, pots, and pans with integrated elements in them.

Otherwise there is a lot of loss with electrics as well. I'll take gas
any day.
 
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