Re: Hydrogen is too difficult.

[Bob Yates]

Very well put, indeed

Of course it was, slave owners had to feed, shelter, and clothe their
property.

 

[Amanda Angelika]

In

Proof that pumped storage is insanely more efficient than electrolysis
is that we routinely have cost effective pumped storage and there is
---> NO <--- bulk energy electrolysis. Zero. Zip. Nada.

Actually it's probably because there isn't sufficient demand for hydrogen. I
mean if hydrogen was like gold it would be worth turning water into it and
the inefficiencies would not be an issue.

Actaully the laws of

A fundamental thermodymanic property called "exergy" absolutely
GUARANTEES that electrolysis is fundamentally a destroyer of value and
can play NO ROLE WHATSOEVER in any energy economy.

Only because there is little demand for hydrogen. IOW the elecricity is
worth more than the hydrogen. that wouldn't be the case in a hydrogen
ecomomy.

The problem is it doesn't matter how efficient fossil fuels are. The shorter
the supply the higher the price will go and there will come a point where
there is a demand for economic alternatives. That said Hydrogen in itself is
perhaps not the best alternative to fossil fuels, hydrogen peroxide is
easier to handle and could perhaps be mixed with other things to make viable
fuels.

 

[Amanda Angelika]

In

Hydrogen storage via electrolysis, of course, has no point.
Because of its staggering and irrecoverable loss of exergy.

Not really the main reason is because there is little demand for hydrogen so
it is worth less than the electricity used to extract it. If there were a
demand for hydrogen that would change.

That said I think there are probably better alternatives to fossil fuels
than hydrogen. In fact Hydrogen Peroxide would be easier to handle and use
in conjunction with other things, to make viable alternative fuels.

 

[Don Lancaster]

Only because there is little demand for hydrogen. IOW the elecricity is
worth more than the hydrogen. that wouldn't be the case in a hydrogen
ecomomy.

Not even wrong.

The ultimate measure of the value of a kilowatt hour of energy is its
thermodynamically reversibly recoverable fraction. This is the
definition of "exergy" and ultimately is the ONLY measure upon which
long term energy values can be based.

Such a fraction is exceptionally high with electricity and ludicrously
low with unstored hydrogen gas, thus GUARANTEEING any mythical hydrogen
economy will not in any manner be electrolysis based.

http://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf
http://www.tinaja.com/glib/muse153.pdf




--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster voice phone: (928)428-4073
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
rss: http://www.tinaja.com/whtnu.xml email: [email protected]

Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

 

[Est]

You win.
I'll just continue running my car on water.
Have a nice 2006.

 

[Steve Spence]

You win.
I'll just continue running my car on water.
Have a nice 2006.

Would be nice if you could and did, but you don't and can't. Thanks for
posing.

 

[[email protected]]

Would be nice if you could and did, but you don't and can't. Thanks for
posing.

Well, if you used really big tires, or maybe pontoons...

Oh... wait...

<vbg>

tah

--

Tod A. Hilty
Hilty Information Systems

Do not look in the direction of the flash...
Curl up in a ball as you hit the ground...

CAUTION: The Mass of This Product Contains the Energy Equivalent
of 85 Million Tons of TNT per Net Ounce of Weight

Please replace weinerboy dot org with adelphia dot net for reply.

 

[Arnold Walker]

Would be nice if you could and did, but you don't and can't. Thanks for
posing.

This guy come from swamp country ....oil company,utility companies, and tree
service been running buggies.
On water for years ....they burn diesel in the tank though..

 

[Steve Spence]

This guy come from swamp country ....oil company,utility companies, and tree
service been running buggies.
On water for years ....they burn diesel in the tank though..

I really got the idea he wants us to think he puts water in his tank,
not diesel. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Don Lancaster]

I really got the idea he wants us to think he puts water in his tank,
not diesel. Correct me if I'm wrong.

There really are magic tablets that let you run your car on water.
Ask any older caver.

The only tiny problem is that you only get forty miles to the engine.



--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster voice phone: (928)428-4073
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
rss: http://www.tinaja.com/whtnu.xml email: [email protected]

Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

 

[Arnold Walker]

In

Well I'd generally agree with most of what you say, but considering most
people have to work for a living and usually work to keep someone else
rich,
or else starve to death, it's somewhat dabatable that slavery was entirely
abolished.

Slavery is alive and well ,in many parts of the world.
Consider the kids on a slave ship off the Ivory Coast in the news two years
,back.
Sudan and China come to mind.As well as many other muslim and /or socialist
areas
of the world.Amazingly human rights groups usually focus on places like the
US,instead
of the "hellholes".It messes with the global economy ideas too much.If you
did notice........
Indentured servant is the most common.....sort like my own Scot relatives
who came to the Colonies,
After the Virginian plantation owners paid the debtor prison expense in
exchange for 7 years free
labor in the blacksmith shop.
Much of the middle/high school education in South Korea was paid
that way at the Sears sweater shops for girls school and dinner stainless
sets shop at the boys school.
They made it and Sears sold it and operated a school in that area.
Unlike the US public schools, the kids actually are required to learn
something.
Guess that would be considered slavery for a school system.....in and of
itself.
Much less the shop work....the school runs 24/7 except for holidays like the
shops.
Problem kids are removed from the program with no appell.
Teacher unions would be in revolt over here. I quess.

 

[AZ Nomad]

There really are magic tablets that let you run your car on water.
Ask any older caver.

Right. A 1 gram tablet will have enough energy to overcome the fifty kilos
of water that would have to be boiled out of the way.

The only tiny problem is that you only get forty miles to the engine.

That could be possible if the engine ran a whole two revolutions.

Wanna buy a bridge?

 

[Don Lancaster]

Right. A 1 gram tablet will have enough energy to overcome the fifty kilos
of water that would have to be boiled out of the way.



That could be possible if the engine ran a whole two revolutions.

Wanna buy a bridge?

Nope.

Totally legit.

They tried to call it a scam in the 1920's, but the tablets really work.

I used to use them all the time.

Just Right.


--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster voice phone: (928)428-4073
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
rss: http://www.tinaja.com/whtnu.xml email: [email protected]

Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

 

[News]

you are try to take advantage.
That is not the web site I advice to check

Will you please stop top posting.

 

[Psiclone]

but what if the oxygen generated from solar panel powered electralysis is
used to cause the hydrogen generated to burn with greater force in a ceramic
generator capable of temperatures of 6000F? add the oxygen generated in
electralysis process to the fuel mixture and the hydrogen has more umph...
how much i havent tested...
anyone capable finding out? you could fill a room half with hydrogen then
strike a match inside. then a collegue could repeat the experiment with the
added amount of oxygen generated during electralysis... ok here are some
factors
assume we have ten 150w solar panels how much hydrogen do we get per hour?
how much oxygen?
ignite that amount of hydrogen and measure the boom.
do it again but this time add the extra oxygen generated then measure the
boom.

btw-
"A couple of decades ago, Toyota Toyota Motor Corporation...researched
production of an adiabatic...ceramic engine which can run at a temperature
of over 6000 °F (3300 °C). Ceramic engines do not require a cooling system
and hence allow a major weight reduction and therefore greater fuel
efficiency. Fuel efficiency of the engine is also higher at high
temperature. In a conventional metallic engine, much of the energy released
from the fuel must be dissipated as waste heat in order to prevent a
meltdown of the metallic parts."
Toyota and Kyocera have done some work on ceramic components.
Kyocera has made turbo rotors and other components to run at high
temperatures.
The big plus with ceramic is said to be the ability to run at higher
temperatures
where no cooling system is required and greater efficiency can be achieved.
http://www.wikimirror.com/Ceramic

 

[Derek Broughton]

but what if the oxygen generated from solar panel powered electralysis is
used to cause the hydrogen generated to burn with greater force in a
ceramic generator capable of temperatures of 6000F? add the oxygen
generated in electralysis process to the fuel mixture and the hydrogen has
more umph... how much i havent tested...

There is nothing you can do to the hydrogen or oxygen to give the process
more "umph". All chemical reactions release fixed, quantifiable, amounts
of energy. The energy released in the hydrogen-oxygen reaction has been
known for many decades. The only way to get more power out of the hydrogen
is to use it for fusion.

 

[Don Lancaster]

Reacting hydrogen with pure oxygen would produce a hotter flame than
using air since it would not have to raise the temp of the nitrogen
going along for the ride. That would also eliminate the oxides of
nitrogen that would otherwise be produced. The efficiency of heat
engines depends on the difference in temp between the high and low temp
of the cycle. So using the pure oxygen would recover more energy, but
there are still better ways to use the energy than electralysis.

Bruce

Contrary to popular belief, the flame temperatures of hydrogen are LOWER
than, say, acetylene.

http://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf


--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster voice phone: (928)428-4073
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
rss: http://www.tinaja.com/whtnu.xml email: [email protected]

Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

 

[Derek Broughton]

Reacting hydrogen with pure oxygen would produce a hotter flame than
using air since it would not have to raise the temp of the nitrogen
going along for the ride. That would also eliminate the oxides of
nitrogen that would otherwise be produced. The efficiency of heat
engines depends on the difference in temp between the high and low temp
of the cycle. So using the pure oxygen would recover more energy, but
there are still better ways to use the energy than electralysis.

What you're really saying is that using pure Oxygen you'd lose _less_ energy
in the total Water - Electrolysis -> H2 + O2 - combustion -> Water process.
I'll grant you that, but there's still nothing you can do to get more power
out of the Hydrogen and Oxygen than you put into making it.