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Re: 60/40 vs. 63/37 Solder

  • Thread starter William Sommerwerck
  • Start date
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William Sommerwerck

Jan 1, 1970
0
As far as I know, no.

63/37 has been "known" to be eutectic for at least 50 years. (I read about
it in "Popular Electronics" as a wee babe.)

The only reason 60/40 was ever manufactured in the first place is that tin
is more expensive than lead, so 63/37 solder costs more. Unless you're
Really Cheap, 63/37 is always preferable. It has slightly greater mechanical
strength, too, though this is rarely a consideration.

J Gordon Holt, who founded "The Stereophile", had his own theories about
soldering. Back in the days when people assembled vacuum-tube equipment from
kits, he recommended simply poking component leads through the lugs, and
soldering them without crimping them. His reasoning was that, if the
component ever needed replacement, you wouldn't have to fiddle with
uncrimping it. (If you've ever unsoldered old equipment, you know what a
tsuris this can be.) The "catch", of course, is that both the lug and the
lead have to be very clean, and you're more likely to get a cold or
incomplete connection. This is a situation where you would /definitely/ want
to use 63/37.

While I'm on the subject... I once asked the late Bob Tucker, * who wrote
the user manuals for Dynaco, why the soldering instructions were, at one
point, obviously in the "wrong" sequence. He explained that Dynaco's
"policy" was that, once a lug had three wires in it, it was to be soldered.
There was otherwise too-great a chance of it being overlooked and remaining
unsoldered, only to cause problems down the line.

* Bob, who passed on in the late '80s, was one of the nicest, most-gracious
people you could ever hope to meet. He was, perhaps surprisingly, also one
of the handsomest men I've ever seen -- by comparison, most actors and
fashion models are plain -- but he didn't seem aware of it.
 
S

Smitty Two

Jan 1, 1970
0
William Sommerwerck said:
The only reason 60/40 was ever manufactured in the first place is that tin
is more expensive than lead, so 63/37 solder costs more.

Cite, please? (and I don't mean a link to commodity prices)
 
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William Sommerwerck

Jan 1, 1970
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The only reason 60/40 was ever manufactured in the first place is
Cite, please? (and I don't mean a link to commodity prices)

I can only cite "common sense". 63/37 has always been more-expensive than
60/40.
 
S

Smitty Two

Jan 1, 1970
0
Cite, please? (and I don't mean a link to commodity prices)

I can only cite "common sense". 63/37 has always been more-expensive than
60/40.[/QUOTE]

Then you can't substantiate your contention that 60/40 was THE worldwide
standard for tens of years just because it was a few pennies cheaper per
pound? That is the statement of yours with which I take issue.
 
W

William Sommerwerck

Jan 1, 1970
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The only reason 60/40 was ever manufactured in the first place is
Then you can't substantiate your contention that 60/40 was THE
worldwide standard for tens of years just because it was a few pennies
cheaper per pound? That is the statement of yours with which I take issue.

I have no objection to your objection.

However, 60/40 was never, ever, "a few pennies per pound" cheaper than
63/37. For the last 30 years, the price of eutectic solder has been
sufficiently higher to make one think twice before buying it. The last time
I purchased solder, I decided that a one-pound roll of Kester 44 would last
the rest of my life, and I splurged. (At this point in my life, my
prediction is coming true. I rarely solder any more. If I drop dead, someone
digging through the junk will find a pleasant surprise. Assuming they know
what 63/37 is.)

I just checked Parts Express, and a 1# roll of Kester 44 60/40 is $22.23.
63/37 is $26.85. That's a $4.62 difference, almost 21% more -- hardly
"pennies per pound". When I bought the same product some years back, my
memory is that the price was around $7.50 for the 60/40, $9 for the 63/37.
Even that wasn't "pennies per pound".

I looked at the MCM site for Ersin products. Get this... MCM describes its
house brand of 60/40 solder as "provid[ing] the lowest possible melting
point".

Businesses almost always try to cut every corner they can. If you think your
solderers -- or soldering machines -- are doing a good job, you might prefer
to buy the less-expensive 60/40.

When I worked at Bendix Field Engineering, I often walked through the
section where a bunch of women (never men) soldered assemblies, following
NASA standards. I never thought to ask whether they used 60/40 or 63/37.
 
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William Sommerwerck

Jan 1, 1970
0
Maybe the price difference is due to "new and improved"
rather than any other reason.

No, eutectic solder has always been more expensive, and the reason has
always been that tin is more-expensive than lead.

63/37 has the lowest melt point of all tin/lead alloys, 361 F

Exactly. That was my point, and MCM's error. I remember the little phase
diagram in the Popular Electronics article.
 
G

GregS

Jan 1, 1970
0
Then you can't substantiate your contention that 60/40 was THE
worldwide standard for tens of years just because it was a few pennies
cheaper per pound? That is the statement of yours with which I take issue.

I have no objection to your objection.

However, 60/40 was never, ever, "a few pennies per pound" cheaper than
63/37. For the last 30 years, the price of eutectic solder has been
sufficiently higher to make one think twice before buying it. The last time
I purchased solder, I decided that a one-pound roll of Kester 44 would last
the rest of my life, and I splurged. (At this point in my life, my
prediction is coming true. I rarely solder any more. If I drop dead, someone
digging through the junk will find a pleasant surprise. Assuming they know
what 63/37 is.)

I just checked Parts Express, and a 1# roll of Kester 44 60/40 is $22.23.
63/37 is $26.85. That's a $4.62 difference, almost 21% more -- hardly
"pennies per pound". When I bought the same product some years back, my
memory is that the price was around $7.50 for the 60/40, $9 for the 63/37.
Even that wasn't "pennies per pound".

I looked at the MCM site for Ersin products. Get this... MCM describes its
house brand of 60/40 solder as "provid[ing] the lowest possible melting
point".

Businesses almost always try to cut every corner they can. If you think your
solderers -- or soldering machines -- are doing a good job, you might prefer
to buy the less-expensive 60/40.

When I worked at Bendix Field Engineering, I often walked through the
section where a bunch of women (never men) soldered assemblies, following
NASA standards. I never thought to ask whether they used 60/40 or 63/37.


I like 63/37 because some stuff I do I like it as low a temp as possible.

Deja vu. I worked for BFEC at NASA site, and went to NASA ssoldering school.
I would guess 60/40 would be the norm.

greg
 
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William Sommerwerck

Jan 1, 1970
0
I like 63/37 because some stuff I do I like it as low a temp
as possible.

Allmost all my soldering is repairs; cold joints seem more likely when
you're fixing something.

Deja vu. I worked for BFEC at NASA site, and went to NASA
soldering school. I would guess 60/40 would be the norm.

Probably. I never had to solder, so I never went to school.

Which site? When? I worked from 1974 through 1978.
 
F

Fred Abse

Jan 1, 1970
0
When I worked at Bendix Field Engineering, I often walked through the
section where a bunch of women (never men) soldered assemblies, following
NASA standards. I never thought to ask whether they used 60/40 or 63/37.

NASA standards authorize both.
 
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William Sommerwerck

Jan 1, 1970
0
Which site? When? I worked from 1974 through 1977.

Did you ever change the klystron frequency from the control panel (there
were six buttons along the bottom), rather than going out to the
transmitter? If so, you used one of the improvements I installed.
 
G

GregS

Jan 1, 1970
0
Did you ever change the klystron frequency from the control panel (there
were six buttons along the bottom), rather than going out to the
transmitter? If so, you used one of the improvements I installed.


I never ran that, but do recall them tuning them up. Something
rings a bell though about mods. As the 80's rolled through everything
was remote controled off site.

I do remember the time I pushed a button on one of the antenna motors,
and everything went black for miles.

I also remember the time one would go outside and point at the falling Skylab,
and the other person would try to move the antenna and lock on to it.
What with the 1 degree beamwidth was impossible. We were using Norads
predicts and they were too far off to be able to use. Somebody finally locked
onto the spacecraft and finally got good predicts.

I also remember the time we tracked the moon with a wrench.
For a while.

Big 85 ft.antenna made in Pittsburgh, as was much of the stuff made in the USA
back then.


greg
 
S

Smitty Two

Jan 1, 1970
0
Then you can't substantiate your contention that 60/40 was THE
worldwide standard for tens of years just because it was a few pennies
cheaper per pound? That is the statement of yours with which I take issue.

I have no objection to your objection.

However, 60/40 was never, ever, "a few pennies per pound" cheaper than
63/37. For the last 30 years, the price of eutectic solder has been
sufficiently higher to make one think twice before buying it. The last time
I purchased solder, I decided that a one-pound roll of Kester 44 would last
the rest of my life, and I splurged. (At this point in my life, my
prediction is coming true. I rarely solder any more. If I drop dead, someone
digging through the junk will find a pleasant surprise. Assuming they know
what 63/37 is.)

I just checked Parts Express, and a 1# roll of Kester 44 60/40 is $22.23.
63/37 is $26.85. That's a $4.62 difference, almost 21% more -- hardly
"pennies per pound". When I bought the same product some years back, my
memory is that the price was around $7.50 for the 60/40, $9 for the 63/37.
Even that wasn't "pennies per pound".[/QUOTE]
Businesses almost always try to cut every corner they can. If you think your
solderers -- or soldering machines -- are doing a good job, you might prefer
to buy the less-expensive 60/40.

William, Parts Express sells to hobbyists. Their prices are meaningless
as a reference. I buy solder, as I have for 25 years, from industrial
suppliers. Since you didn't state either the diameter or the core, (and
diameter can make a huge difference in price) I looked up your
comparison rolls on Parts Express. I see you referred to Kester 44 with
a 66 core and at .031 diameter.

To compare apples to apples, I called my supplier yesterday for current
pricing: 63/37, $13.80/lb. 60/40, $13.30/lb. I also asked how many
people were buying 60/40, and she confirmed that well over 90% of
customers use 63/37.

1. You're paying nosebleed prices whichever formula you buy.
2. The cost difference is indeed pennies when purchased from real supply
houses
3. Regardless of the cost difference, 63/37 *is* the standard now, as it
has been for 20 years.
4. Based on #3 above, your assertion that companies will cut corners
anyway they can is false.
5. Therefore, my contention that the widespread switch was made due to
improved performance of 63/37 seems to be the only logical conclusion.

Now, you said that 63/37 eutectic nature was known 50 years ago. That
may or may not be true, but what is true is that the widespread
industrial changeover happened much more recently, about 20 years ago.
 
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William Sommerwerck

Jan 1, 1970
0
To compare apples to apples, I called my supplier yesterday for
current pricing: 63/37, $13.80/lb. 60/40, $13.30/lb. I also asked
how many people were buying 60/40, and she confirmed that
well over 90% of customers use 63/37.

Fascinating. It raises the question of why there is such a huge difference
in the pricing of Kester's solders.

Now, you said that 63/37 eutectic nature was known 50 years ago.
That may or may not be true, but what is true is that the widespread
industrial changeover happened much more recently, about 20 years
ago.

Hey, I read it in Popular Electronics in the '60s. It was probably known
back in the '30s.
 
S

Smitty Two

Jan 1, 1970
0
To compare apples to apples, I called my supplier yesterday for
current pricing: 63/37, $13.80/lb. 60/40, $13.30/lb. I also asked
how many people were buying 60/40, and she confirmed that
well over 90% of customers use 63/37.

Fascinating. It raises the question of why there is such a huge difference
in the pricing of Kester's solders.
[/QUOTE]

If you're referring to widely different prices from different suppliers,
it's the same with any product or service, of course. When the 99%
isopropyl topic come up, I plugged it into google's "shopping" tab.
Prices ranged from 2.79 to 14.50 for a pint of the stuff.
 
W

William Sommerwerck

Jan 1, 1970
0
To compare apples to apples, I called my supplier yesterday for
If you're referring to widely different prices from different suppliers,
it's the same with any product or service, of course. When the 99%
isopropyl topic come up, I plugged it into google's "shopping" tab.
Prices ranged from 2.79 to 14.50 for a pint of the stuff.

That isn't what I meant. There's a 20% difference in the price between
Kester's 60/40 and 63/37 solders.
 
S

Smitty Two

Jan 1, 1970
0
If you're referring to widely different prices from different suppliers,
it's the same with any product or service, of course. When the 99%
isopropyl topic come up, I plugged it into google's "shopping" tab.
Prices ranged from 2.79 to 14.50 for a pint of the stuff.

That isn't what I meant. There's a 20% difference in the price between
Kester's 60/40 and 63/37 solders.[/QUOTE]

Oh, so you didn't read my post after all. To reiterate, 63/37 is 13.80,
60/40 is 13.30. That's uh, let's see, oh yeah, less than 4%.
 
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William Sommerwerck

Jan 1, 1970
0
Smitty Two said:
Oh, so you didn't read my post after all. To reiterate, 63/37 is 13.80,
60/40 is 13.30. That's uh, let's see, oh yeah, less than 4%.

<GASP!>

Yes, I DID read your post, and Yes, I did understand exactly what you said.
To wit... that there was almost no difference in the prices of the 60/40 and
63/37 solders from your supplier. That's why I raised the question about why
there WAS such a large difference between Kester's solders.

I think it was plain from what I wrote that I was wondering why there was
almost no difference in your supplier's prices for solders from (presumably)
the same manufacturer, while Kester solders had a 20% difference. (See
above.) Must /everything/ be explained in excruciating detail five times
over?

This happens over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over, and not just to me. It's because people don't read carefully, then
think about what they've read. Believe me, I sometimes am about to respond
to a post, then discover I'm mis-understood it.
 
W

William Sommerwerck

Jan 1, 1970
0
I think you may have conflated two different issues here, when
comparing 60/40 and 63/37. One is the question of manufacture, one is
the question of distribution channel (hobby/retail vs. industrial).

I didn't conflate the issues, as the latter hadn't been raised when I first
brought up the point.

So... based on this evidence, it looks to me as if Kester does not
necessarily have a major price skew between the two alloys, at least
not in the gauges typically used for PC board assembly.

It does in the case of the MCM catalog, at least for the gauge I looked at.
Other companies show similar huge disparities. It makes little sense, when
the ones you (and Smitty) cited are so close.

FYI, when one of the earlier posters said he'd checked solder prices
"from his supplier", I don't think he stated a brand at all... and yet
your reply seems to have assumed that he was *not* referring to
Kester. If you did assume that (and I'm only sorta assuming that you
assumed it :) it might have misled you a bit.

I wasn't mislead. Given the differenc in price, it was obvious it wasn't
Kester.
 
S

Smitty Two

Jan 1, 1970
0
William Sommerwerck said:
Smitty Two said:
<GASP!>

Yes, I DID read your post, and Yes, I did understand exactly what you said.
To wit... that there was almost no difference in the prices of the 60/40 and
63/37 solders from your supplier. That's why I raised the question about why
there WAS such a large difference between Kester's solders.

I think it was plain from what I wrote that I was wondering why there was
almost no difference in your supplier's prices for solders from (presumably)
the same manufacturer, while Kester solders had a 20% difference. (See
above.) Must /everything/ be explained in excruciating detail five times
over?

This happens over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over, and not just to me. It's because people don't read carefully, then
think about what they've read. Believe me, I sometimes am about to respond
to a post, then discover I'm mis-understood it.

AH-SO! At last we're communicating. Yep, usenet is tough that way
sometimes. Here's the missing piece: The solder I buy IS KESTER. The
EXACT same stuff that you buy. Only two differences: The disparity in
formulations is less, and the price is roughly half.
 
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