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Question about reversed-polarity in an AC outlet

N

NSM

Jan 1, 1970
0
Beeper said:
Wrong again! Many times a sub panel is introduced into the picture and you
run an isolated neutral. by Isolated I mean it is not bonded to the ground
strip. This is done because the Ground is not suppose to have current on
it. It is as Terry said a safety device. If you were to bond the neutral and
ground bars in the sub panel, then the ground would share the current load
back to the main panel.

Where it is grounded.

N
 
N

NSM

Jan 1, 1970
0
RonKZ650 said:
I have a plastic vaccuum cleaner with a polarized plug. I'd hate to
suffer the consequences if somehow that plug polarity was reversed, I'd
be instantly electrocuted while vaccuuming! As rediculous as this is,
this is where we are in this country at least. Everything is dangerous,
nothing safe enough. Watch out when installing those 9v batteries in
your calculator, may get a severe shock. Bunch of crap really, but
that's the way it is I'm afraid.

Grow up.

N
 
N

NSM

Jan 1, 1970
0
Pick all the nits you want but you aren't supposed put your fingers in
the socket when changing a light bulb. Heck, plugs in this country aren't
recessed as they are in many other parts of the World so it's possible to
get electrocuted by touching the Hot prong while plugging an appliance in.

The US plug / socket is pretty crappy. I remember a house I worked on which
had been wired with some bizarre sockets never seen before or since which
had exposed brass on the surface at 240 VAC. Tried to convince the homeowner
to have them all changed but she wouldn't hear of it. A couple of weeks
later a grandchild got a shock off one (non-fatal).

N
 
N

NSM

Jan 1, 1970
0
Everybody has their moronic moments. Arranging
that they are less likely to die is generally a good
idea. Even if you think a lot of lesser intelligences
should be eliminated, that is not an approach that
can be taken, for long, in a professional setting.

No point making it too easy for people to win the Darwin Prize.

N
 
N

NSM

Jan 1, 1970
0
And most everybody was a young child, at some point in their lives,
and is at a stage where they haven't yet acquired all of the
background information needed to exhibit what adults call "common
sense".

Bugger all grownups have any common sense either.

http://zeeb.at/oops/WomenLiveLonger1.jpg
http://zeeb.at/oops/WomenLiveLonger2.jpg
http://zeeb.at/oops/WomenLiveLonger3.jpg
http://zeeb.at/oops/WomenLiveLonger4.jpg
http://zeeb.at/oops/WomenLiveLonger5.jpg
http://zeeb.at/oops/WomenLiveLonger6.jpg

Hands up any guy who hasn't done one of these - or something just as dumb
(my hand is not up!).

N
 
T

Tomi Holger Engdahl

Jan 1, 1970
0
Zak said:
Euro sockets have a side contact that is separate from teh treads. It
is all the way in the base, touching the threaded metal part from the
end, not the side. Are USian sockets different?

Yes based on what I have seen.
In USA the sockets could easily be with metal threads.
So the way the power is applies is best to be so that the
neutral is on the threads...
Anyway you can see also bases constructed like those
bulb sockets with plastic threads and contact on the bottom.
 
T

Tomi Holger Engdahl

Jan 1, 1970
0
NSM said:
Where it is grounded.

It is grounded on the building main panel.

So all the grounds, neutrals and isolated neutrals will
meet at the house main panel in normal gounded neutral
power distribution.

In addition to this there are some countries where
some different approaches are used.
 
M

Michael A. Terrell

Jan 1, 1970
0
Beeper said:
Equipment is typically fused as close to the hot feed as possible. If you
reverse the plug the fuse is now closer to the neutral side. See any
problems with that?

Not in the US. How about: "AC plugs in the US are not allowed to be
fused"? At one time they were allowed, till the polarized outlets and
plugs were in common use.
 
S

Sam Goldwasser

Jan 1, 1970
0
NSM said:
No point making it too easy for people to win the Darwin Prize.

But how far should society go?

You can get killed falling downa flight of steps also.

Should steps be illegal? :)

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N

Noah Little

Jan 1, 1970
0
Sam said:
You can get killed falling downa flight of steps also.
Should steps be illegal? :)

Check the dictionary for "ingenuous."
 
B

Beeper

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ok you're right. No ground because we have a neutral doing the same thing
anyways. Hot breaks loose in a metal junction box and rests against the
case. well the lights are out now so you need to go find the problem. Trace
it down to the junction box. Grab an aluminum ladder climb up on
it(hopefully there is no moisture on the floor, or on your body from
sweat..well with all the hard work you've been doing tracing the problem).
Grab onto the box to unscrew the cover and hopefully ohms law is on your
side. In most cases the shock doesn't kill you but the fall from the ladder
does. By the way, do you know what voltage level is the number 1 killer in
electrical accidents? Yes, 110 volts. Because too many people think like
you. The higher voltages would kill you much faster but the people who deal
with them know and respect the dangers. I'd also like to venture a guess you
either have no kids or don't deserve them if you do. Kids are adventourous
with the unknown. They don't know better. PROTECT THEM!
 
B

Beeper

Jan 1, 1970
0
I'm gonna go out on a limb here. I'm guessing you're not supplying all the
relevant info or I'm confused. Straighten me out if necessary. I can
probably agrre with you if there is an isolation transformer in the picture
somewhere(i'm speaking of portable electrical equipment). The main fuse or
breaker will take care of the line voltage. The secondary will be protected
by a fuse. If the equipment has no transformer for a power supply, is there
a fuse protecting the equipment from the line voltage...sorry amperage? I
think you'd be hard pressed to find any equipment without one. True it's to
protect the circuitry of the equipment but you will find a fuse on the "HOT"
side.
 
B

Bob Myers

Jan 1, 1970
0
Sam Goldwasser said:
Would you legislate that ALL lamps in the USA be required to be made
and retrofitted to have polarized plugs way and have the LAMP POLICE
do regular inspections to assure that?

Of course not; I'm merely pointing out that there IS a very
legitimate reason, pertaining to safety, for doing to polarization
the way it is done. And so, if you DO happen to be rewiring a
lamp or just replacing the plug, a polarized version might be a
good idea.
How many lamps in your house have non-polarized plugs? :) How many times
have you replaced the plug or cord without noting which side was which?

Re the first question, quite a few; it's not such a big deal to me that
I'm going to go back and retrofit everything. But as to the second
question - never. It's not a habit I'd want to encourage in myself.

Bob M.
 
N

NSM

Jan 1, 1970
0
It is grounded on the building main panel.

So all the grounds, neutrals and isolated neutrals will
meet at the house main panel in normal gounded neutral
power distribution.

In addition to this there are some countries where
some different approaches are used.

In parts of Asia one of the three phases is grounded. Scared the crap out of
me when I went to install a surface grinder bought from there - had to
rewire it.

N
 
N

NSM

Jan 1, 1970
0
Beeper said:
Ok you're right. No ground because we have a neutral doing the same thing
anyways. Hot breaks loose in a metal junction box and rests against the
case. well the lights are out now so you need to go find the problem. Trace
it down to the junction box. Grab an aluminum ladder climb up on
it(hopefully there is no moisture on the floor, or on your body from
sweat..well with all the hard work you've been doing tracing the problem).
Grab onto the box to unscrew the cover and hopefully ohms law is on your
side. In most cases the shock doesn't kill you but the fall from the ladder
does. By the way, do you know what voltage level is the number 1 killer in
electrical accidents? Yes, 110 volts. Because too many people think like
you. The higher voltages would kill you much faster but the people who deal
with them know and respect the dangers. I'd also like to venture a guess you
either have no kids or don't deserve them if you do. Kids are adventourous
with the unknown. They don't know better. PROTECT THEM!

Your lack of logic is extremely confusing. I got 98% on my written tests to
pass my trade exams. Three phase services are easy to install. I triple
check all single phase installations against the regs just to be sure. I
take extra precautions in certain cases over and above the regulations just
in case. Unlike you, I never leave metal ungrounded, in fact I am a firm
believer in bonding all metal parts under sinks, tubs etc. so no potentials
can ever develop. But you go ahead, run ungrounded conduit and see how soon
it bites you in the ass.

N
 
N

NSM

Jan 1, 1970
0
But how far should society go?

You can get killed falling down a flight of steps also.

Should steps be illegal? :)

And you can be convicted of first degree murder if your wife takes a header
down them.

N
 
J

Jim Thompson

Jan 1, 1970
0
[snip]
Your lack of logic is extremely confusing. I got 98% on my written tests to
pass my trade exams. Three phase services are easy to install. I triple
check all single phase installations against the regs just to be sure. I
take extra precautions in certain cases over and above the regulations just
in case. Unlike you, I never leave metal ungrounded, in fact I am a firm
believer in bonding all metal parts under sinks, tubs etc. so no potentials
can ever develop. But you go ahead, run ungrounded conduit and see how soon
it bites you in the ass.

N

You and me, both!

About 15 years ago, oldest daughter is house-sitting while my wife and
I went to Australia.

Upon our return, she reported a feeling like she was being shocked in
our shower.

Further investigation found a failing neutral.

I found ~15VAC being shower head and drain.

So I adopted a policy of bonding sewer pipes as well as the standard
water-pipe bonding.

...Jim Thompson
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
Pick all the nits you want but you aren't supposed put your fingers in
the socket when changing a light bulb. Heck, plugs in this country aren't
recessed as they are in many other parts of the World so it's possible to
get electrocuted by touching the Hot prong while plugging an appliance in.

Just be sure that your thumb is touching both prongs, so that the current
doesn't have to go through any vital organs. ;-)

Cheers!
Rich
 
N

NSM

Jan 1, 1970
0
You and me, both!

About 15 years ago, oldest daughter is house-sitting while my wife and
I went to Australia.

Upon our return, she reported a feeling like she was being shocked in
our shower.

Further investigation found a failing neutral.

I found ~15VAC being shower head and drain.

So I adopted a policy of bonding sewer pipes as well as the standard
water-pipe bonding.

Yep. There was a case in Kiwiland many years ago where the metal backing of
some wall board got energized via an un-insulated ground, and the metal grab
bar gave someone a shock. Now all grounds there must be insulated.

N
 
N

NSM

Jan 1, 1970
0
Just be sure that your thumb is touching both prongs, so that the current
doesn't have to go through any vital organs. ;-)

One old boss used to test 240 VAC light sockets for live with his thumb!

N
 
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