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Quadrature sinewave output

Discussion in 'Electronic Design' started by Remi, Nov 11, 2003.

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  1. Remi

    Remi Guest

    Dear All

    From a sinewave signal input (frequency varies continually: ~1.6MHz ±
    200kHz, amplitude ~5Vpp) I would like to obtain two levelled sinewave
    signals in quadrature. The two signals must be in the same frequency
    as the input: one in phase, the other exactly in quadrature. I don't
    think I can use a simple integrator/filter, as the amplitude and the
    phase are generally function of the frequency. Maybe do you know a
    good idea or know the magic component that does this directly?
    Thank you for your help

    Remi B.
     
  2. How about a DLL with a tap at 90 degrees (tapped at 1/3 of the loop
    delay)?
     
  3. Try searching for an all pass filter.
    This has theoretically unity gain but phase varies with frequency.
    A simple opamp invertor with the input signal also fed to the positive opamp
    input
    via a lowpass RC network does the trick.

    Regards
    Anthony
     
  4. ETchncn

    ETchncn Guest

    Dear All
    Probably not the only approach but you might consider using an AD9854 DDS chip.
    Two possibilities-either use the DDS to be the frequency source if that's
    possible (the chip has two outputs in quadrature). If that's not possible you
    could use a heterodyne technique in which you mix the input signal with the
    outputs of the DDS with a frequency offset or simply as a dual phase
    synchronous detector to measure signal amplitude and phase. Apply the required
    low pass filtering to the two mixer outputs. Another possibility that I've been
    investigating is using two of the lower cost DDS chips, setting the output of
    the two to be in quadrature within a very small percentage of error. This would
    require that the two chips could be synchronized so that quadrature could be
    achieved. If you need to be sure your outputs are in quadrature (you have to
    filter the DDS outputs to remove spurs, etc. and you'll no doubt end up with
    unequal phase shifts through the filters due to component tolerances) you can
    again use a phase detector (passive or active). Mix the outputs of the two
    quadrature signals and low pass filter the output of the mixer. There will be a
    null in the output when the signals are in quadrature. It's not the smallest
    parts count solution but it might give you some ideas.

    Regards,
    Jim

    Regards,
    Jim
     
  5. Sorry my fault I didn't read the question properly!
    I didn't see that the frequency varied.
    The all pass will obviously change the phase as the frequency varies.
    But maybe its accurate enough?
    Regards
    Anthony
     
  6. I read in sci.electronics.design that Remi
    osting.google.com>) about 'Quadrature sinewave output', on Tue, 11 Nov
    2003:
    That's no problem.
    Does it HAVE to be in phase with the input? How much tolerance can you
    allow?
    How 'exactly'?

    You need to specify two things:

    - the maximum acceptable phase difference between the 'in phase' output
    and the input;

    - the maximum deviation from exact quadrature between the 'quadrature'
    and in phase' outputs.
     
  7. Fred Bloggs

    Fred Bloggs Guest

    This technique will give very good results:
    http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm/appnote_number/1946/ln/en
     
  8. Luhan Monat

    Luhan Monat Guest

    Remi,

    Are you actually processing an existing signal, or are you just trying
    to produce the sin/cos pair?

    There are lots of ways to generate a pair of signals from scratch.

    If you start with an existing signal, the most common method is not to
    produce the 90 degree phase shift, but to produce a pair of outputs at
    +45 and -45 degrees using passive components. This exact problem came
    up when 'single side band' (SSB) transmission became popular in ham radio.
     
  9. Ken Smith

    Ken Smith Guest

    If you have the signal why do you need another one in phase with it?
    A 2 pole low pass filter has 90 degree phase shift near the cut off
    frequency. If you make a voltage controlled low pass filter, you can use
    an XOR type phase detector and feedback to make exactly 90 degrees of
    shift.
     
  10. Jim Thompson

    Jim Thompson Guest

    I've been successful building all-pass filters on-chip that hold 90°
    over nearly an octave.

    Use two all-pass filters:

    Filter #1... corner at (sqrt(2)-1)*Fcenter

    Filter #2... corner at (sqrt(2)+1)*Fcenter

    Phase between outputs will be 90°±2° over an octave range. (Tolerance
    from memory :)

    ...Jim Thompson
     
  11. John Larkin

    John Larkin Guest

    An allpass can be made to have flat gain and constant 90 degrees phase
    shift over a very wide frequency range; one common SSB generation
    technique does this. ARRL handbooks usually have circuits.

    John
     
  12. Subject: Quadrature sinewave output
    Two feedback ideas for precise ninety-degree phase shifts come to mind. The
    first uses an integrator to produce a precise ninety-degree phase shift and a
    leveler to maintain a constant output amplitude. This leveler circuit consists
    of an amplitude modulator, amplitude detector and error amplifier. The second
    approach uses a voltage-controlled allpass filter, quadrature phase detector
    and error amplifier.

    Herbert
     
  13. I read in sci.electronics.design that Herbert Blenner <>
    Which tend to be just a wee bit complicated.
     
  14. gwhite

    gwhite Guest

    PLL?


    +---------------------------O Cos(A)
    |
    | /¯¯¯\ +---+ +---+
    Cos(A) O--+--( X )---|LPF|--|VCO|-+-O Sin(A)
    \___/ +---+ +---+ |
    | |
    +-------------------+

    The PD*LPF has zero output for 90 deg inputs and phase lock.

    That is: Sin(A)Cos(A) = Sin(2x)/2

    Obviously Sin(2x) is knocked out by the LPF.

    Please do the right thing when it comes to "leveling" and filtering out
    harmonics.


    Once you figure out the solutions are rarely trivial for any significant
    bandwidth, you might redefine the scope of your problem. Digital dividers can
    do near perfect wideband 50% dutyCycle phase splitters if you can input 4f.
    However, the digital outputs are square. Also peruse "Phase-Sequence network"
    on p295 of AoA for a wideband analog solution.
     
  15. Remi

    Remi Guest

    The tolerance for the deviation between the I and Q signal is less
    than 1deg, and the phase difference between the input and the I signal
    is also less than 1deg.
    About the PLL: I thought that the output of PLL is always square wave,
    am I wrong? Is it possible to find one with sinevave output?

    Anyway, thank you for your advices; I will probably consider technique
    like SSB to produce the quadrature signals.

    Regards,
    Remi
     
  16. Bill Sloman

    Bill Sloman Guest

    The waveform you get out of your VCO depends on the VCO. I've built
    one phase-locked loop with an LC-sine-wave oscillator. The voltage
    control of frequency was effected by a pair of varactor diodes (driven
    in anti-phase by a centre-tapped inductor to minimise distortion). The
    machine it was designed for never went into production, but the design
    was pinched by one of my colleagues for an electron microscope that
    did go into production.

    If you set up a digital phase-locked loop, you can use the Analog
    Devices DSP chips as your VCO. The AD9854 has already been recommended
    in this thread.

    http://www.analog.com/UploadedFiles/Data_Sheets/87202050AD9854_b.pdf

    It would give you are very nice pair of sine waves.
     
  17. gwhite

    gwhite Guest

    You are wrong in the sense it is whatever you design it to be. "Square wave" is
    a very specific case too, as it implies a 50-50 min-max and that it is
    rectangular. Generally speaking, the more specific the requirements, the harder
    the solution.
    Why not make it? This is s.e._design_. I could not care less how you solve
    your problem, whatever works best for you is what you should do, but the PLL
    approach is capable of a very precise 90 deg phase difference (approaches 0).
    All oscillators use some sort of limiting. So if you are willing to use a bit
    more sophisticated approach to the limiting mechanism in the VCO, you can obtain
    a fairly pure sine wave out. Or you can just filter the output before it is put
    into the PD.

    It is a matter of spec'ing requirements and you did not define purity. A "sine
    wave" in the absolute sense is not achievable (we would need to wait for an
    eternity to see if it was "pure"). If you find your solutions to be unwieldy,
    (complex and/or expensive), it is fair to question both the original spec and
    the solution approach. At some point things stop being worth doing.
     
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