Q: technical description of FLIR

[les]

I know this is a GREAT site for thinkers and tinkerers, so let me
ask here.
I haven't seen much description about the FLIR device. A typical
web search yeilds companies that market it, but nothing relevant
to the transducer or electronics involved.
It seems to be a big secret....almost.
I was wondering how different it is from a regular ccd camera
(excepting the transducer device) and what the "ccd-like" chip
really is.
Also, is the nm sensitivity adjustable, or the psuedo-color mapping
addressable for display?

Thanks..........Les KA9GLW

 

[Andy]

Andy responds:

I am familiar with some of the military Forward Looking Infra Red
systems\
and they are much much much more sophisticated, typically, than the
simple CCD cameras with the IR LEDs mounted around them. The one
in the F16, for instance, has cooling pumps and can see stuff 20 miles
away at midnite..... On the other hand, I have a little $20 black
and white
camera that can see a couple feet with an LED illuminator.....

So, the range of complexity is mind boggling..... The night vision
scopes
for the military don't use cooling and are similar to the ones you buy
in sporting good stores, only they cost 100 times as much......

However, the ones using the cheap CCD chips are all low
performance.
The really good ones are still classified...... You can go to
terraserver
or one of the weather radar sites and see the satellite photos , some
of
which are infrared .. That's pretty good stuff, but not even close
to
what some military stuff can do........

Anyway, I worked with them a bunch at Raytheon, before I retired.

Andy

 

[les]

I'm interested in the variety that are used in surveillance
typically as they seem rugged and probably not in the
classified arena.
I have an IR scope, since I experiment with IR photography
and other optics. It does basically what my Sony DVcam does
with (IR) ambient illumination, which is basically amazing.
(our eyes are sooooo inadequate)
But, I have talked to a fireman (friend) and they have
unit that respond to the 8-10 nm band which affords finding
victims.
I don't know if this technology is classified, but I'm very curious
to read more about the hardware operation (not the cooled
versions) Are we talking Peltier cooling or liquid gas?

I'm not interested in military apps. I'd be happy to see what
I could do with it in the medical field.

Les KA9GLW

 

[les]

postscript

I'm curious about the imagery as I 'd like to see
what this does with a blackbody radiator as a vascular
bed, and not one that's dependent on external IR
illumination that's of a shorter bandwidth.
Les

 

[Do Little2]

I'm interested in the variety that are used in surveillance
typically as they seem rugged and probably not in the
classified arena.
I have an IR scope, since I experiment with IR photography
and other optics. It does basically what my Sony DVcam does
with (IR) ambient illumination, which is basically amazing.
(our eyes are sooooo inadequate)
But, I have talked to a fireman (friend) and they have
unit that respond to the 8-10 nm band which affords finding
victims.
I don't know if this technology is classified, but I'm very curious
to read more about the hardware operation (not the cooled
versions) Are we talking Peltier cooling or liquid gas?

Suggestion: look around for an old used IR spectrophotometer.
Even the cheapest IR units may have all the usefull parts in there
for looking in the middle IR band between 2.5 and 16 micron.
Have fun!

 

[Jim Yanik]

I'm interested in the variety that are used in surveillance
typically as they seem rugged and probably not in the
classified arena.
I have an IR scope, since I experiment with IR photography
and other optics. It does basically what my Sony DVcam does
with (IR) ambient illumination, which is basically amazing.
(our eyes are sooooo inadequate)
But, I have talked to a fireman (friend) and they have
unit that respond to the 8-10 nm band which affords finding
victims.
I don't know if this technology is classified, but I'm very curious
to read more about the hardware operation (not the cooled
versions) Are we talking Peltier cooling or liquid gas?

I'm not interested in military apps. I'd be happy to see what
I could do with it in the medical field.

Les KA9GLW

There are cooled imagers and uncooled thermal imagers.
(that's the distinction between "IR" and thermal imagers;wavelength."IR"
covers 850-12000nm,but "thermal" imagers use long-wave IR,8-12um)

IIRC,Raytheon makes an uncooled one at "relatively" low cost for fire and
emergency workers.
It's based on a bolometer array,not a CCD or CMOS sensor.

 

[mike]

I'm interested in the variety that are used in surveillance
typically as they seem rugged and probably not in the
classified arena.
I have an IR scope, since I experiment with IR photography
and other optics. It does basically what my Sony DVcam does
with (IR) ambient illumination, which is basically amazing.
(our eyes are sooooo inadequate)
But, I have talked to a fireman (friend) and they have
unit that respond to the 8-10 nm band which affords finding
victims.
I don't know if this technology is classified, but I'm very curious
to read more about the hardware operation (not the cooled
versions) Are we talking Peltier cooling or liquid gas?

I'm not interested in military apps. I'd be happy to see what
I could do with it in the medical field.

Les KA9GLW

I have the older Argus one used by the fire department.
Closest thing to a description that I've found says that it's a vidicon
with a coating that emits electrons when stimulated by IR. Apparently
this technology was short-lived and soon replaced by solid state
versions.
It's kinda cool to see your footprints in the carpet as you walk across
it. And you can sure see the heat leaks in your house.

Problem is that it's no good closer than about 8 feet.
If I could get my hands on a lens that would let me look at circuit
boards in operation, I'd be a happy camper. IR imagers make great short
finders.
mike

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[les]

I do have an old IR spectrophotometer that uses a flame to
volitolize the specimen and chart the emission. That's useful
to discriminate relative spectral emissions and analyze the chemical
components. What I need is an imaging system akin to the FLIR.

 

[les]

Jim...good, now I'm getting some useful info.
This bolometer, which I've read about in astronomy articles is
used for single-point detection. How is this device structured
to deliver an image ? The Raytheon imager must "scan" somehow.
This is why, in my mind, it appears more similar to a CCD in
function.
Please fill me in how this bolometer is adapted.
And , yes, I'm looking at the 8-12um bandwidth for my project.
Is the bolometer array and driving ICs on the market as components?

Les KA9GLW

 

[les]

I have the older Argus one used by the fire department.

Closest thing to a description that I've found says that it's a vidicon
with a coating that emits electrons when stimulated by IR. Apparently
this technology was short-lived and soon replaced by solid state
versions.
It's kinda cool to see your footprints in the carpet as you walk across
it. And you can sure see the heat leaks in your house

Mike....that is a really neat device. I'd find that interesting too.
As you mentioned, it could be useful in novel things, or in determining
where to beef up the home insulation. Last winter I had this very thought
as my gas bills rose......

Problem is that it's no good closer than about 8 feet.
If I could get my hands on a lens that would let me look at circuit
boards in operation, I'd be a happy camper. IR imagers make great short
finders.
mike

Depending on the array used (this is what I keep asking about since
I don't know if the device is a parallel array or serial meaning a single
lens ) it could be a matter of finding an accesory lens to "correct" the
focal point, or extending the lens from the body of the device akin to
microphotography. Problems are stabilizing the lens, and a shallow depth of
field, plus loss of illumination...making the scope less sensitive.
I'd go for an accessory lens, for cost and flexibility. The added
complication is the refractive index of glass lenses in the subterranean
world is different
and focusing would require trail-and-error to compensate for this by
extending the focal plane forward of the normal spectrum. If glass isn't
useful at this frequency, perhaps quartz is used. I'm not sure what optics
are down there. I'm familiar with upper band IR, but haven't had experience
with the other stuff.

 

[Jim Yanik]

Jim...good, now I'm getting some useful info.
This bolometer, which I've read about in astronomy articles is
used for single-point detection. How is this device structured
to deliver an image ?

It is an 2-D ARRAY of individual bolometer devices scaled to the proper
size for the intended frequencies(8-12um),and addressed the same as any
CMOS or CCD array.

The Raytheon imager must "scan" somehow.

No,it's a staring array lie a video camera sensor(CCD chip)

 

[Jim Yanik]

Jim...good, now I'm getting some useful info.
This bolometer, which I've read about in astronomy articles is
used for single-point detection. How is this device structured
to deliver an image ? The Raytheon imager must "scan" somehow.
This is why, in my mind, it appears more similar to a CCD in
function.
Please fill me in how this bolometer is adapted.
And , yes, I'm looking at the 8-12um bandwidth for my project.
Is the bolometer array and driving ICs on the market as components?

Les KA9GLW

From Googling "handheld low cost thermal imager"

http://www.manufacturingtalk.com/news/iac/iac114.html

http://www.temperatures.com/tivendors.html

http://www.ir55.com/IR.html

there's a lot more,go look for yourself.

 

[mike]

Mike....that is a really neat device. I'd find that interesting too.
As you mentioned, it could be useful in novel things, or in determining
where to beef up the home insulation. Last winter I had this very thought
as my gas bills rose......




Depending on the array used (this is what I keep asking about since
I don't know if the device is a parallel array or serial meaning a single
lens ) it could be a matter of finding an accesory lens to "correct" the
focal point, or extending the lens from the body of the device akin to
microphotography. Problems are stabilizing the lens, and a shallow depth of
field, plus loss of illumination...making the scope less sensitive.
I'd go for an accessory lens, for cost and flexibility. The added
complication is the refractive index of glass lenses in the subterranean
world is different
and focusing would require trail-and-error to compensate for this by
extending the focal plane forward of the normal spectrum. If glass isn't
useful at this frequency, perhaps quartz is used. I'm not sure what optics
are down there. I'm familiar with upper band IR, but haven't had experience
with the other stuff.

Glass is useful. I think the lenses are made of Selenium. And they
ain't cheap enough to experiment with.
mike

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[mike]

Glass is useful. I think the lenses are made of Selenium. And they
ain't cheap enough to experiment with.
mike

My bad, lenses are Germainum. Same diff.
mike

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[les]

GERMANIUM ? The same stuff they dope solid-state
components with? How interesting.....I wonder if they even
appear like lenses in normal light...
This reminds me how microwave and x-rays can be focused by
elaborate means using "lenses" as well.
If I see a surplus outfit for germanium lenses, I'll know what that's
all about now. Also, I'll see if I can pass the source along to you.

BTW, how lucky for you to find this Argus. Did you get it at an
auction at the firehouse? I know they have them at rare times.
Did it cost you an arm?

 

[Do Little2]

I do have an old IR spectrophotometer that uses a flame to
volitolize the specimen and chart the emission.

Current (old and new) spectrophotometers never use a flame
as an IR source, it probably is an UV or VIS-able unit. Or
it could even be an Atomic Absorption Spectrophotometer.

 

[mike]

GERMANIUM ? The same stuff they dope solid-state
components with? How interesting.....I wonder if they even
appear like lenses in normal light...
This reminds me how microwave and x-rays can be focused by
elaborate means using "lenses" as well.
If I see a surplus outfit for germanium lenses, I'll know what that's
all about now. Also, I'll see if I can pass the source along to you.

BTW, how lucky for you to find this Argus. Did you get it at an
auction at the firehouse? I know they have them at rare times.
Did it cost you an arm?

I traded it for a $1 HP15C calculator at a ham radio swap meet.
Probably could have gotten $150 for the calculator on ebay tho.
Cool toy, but didn't take long to get bored with it.
mike

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Return address is VALID but some sites block emails
with links. Delete this sig when replying.
..
Wanted, PCMCIA SCSI Card for HP m820 CDRW.
FS 500MHz Tek DSOscilloscope TDS540 Make Offer
Wanted 12" LCD for Compaq Armada 7770MT.
Bunch of stuff For Sale and Wanted at the link below.
MAKE THE OBVIOUS CHANGES TO THE LINK
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[les]

You are correct.. It's an A.A. Spectrophotometer Model 1000 by
Varian Techtron.
Did you have a question about it?

 

[Do Little2]

You are correct.. It's an A.A. Spectrophotometer Model 1000 by
Varian Techtron.
Did you have a question about it?

Just a suggestion, if you ever scrap it, it maybe
a good idea to keep the hollow cathode tube,
grating and detector. If you look around at the
below link (one line) than you'll find lots of info
regarding IR units/components.
http://www.newport.com/searchresults.aspx?searchfor=IR germanium&lang=&typ
e=0

Have fun!
---