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Proper group for heatsink question?

P

Pooh Bear

Jan 1, 1970
0
Chris said:
No good deed goes unpunished -- didn't really say that at all. First,
I gave you quite a bit of _very_ specific advice for a newbie or
hobbyist, which is the assumed audience for s.e.b., and could have been
assumed given your lack of specificity in your original post.
Something vague like your original post is charitably assumed to be the
result of lack of knowledge rather than lack of effort. If you'd spent
more than two minutes on your original post (from further posts, there
obviously was quite a lot more you _could_ have said without bumping up
against non-disclosure), or read the first couple of paragraphs of my
first response, you'd see that and not get offended.

Second, your problem extends a little beyond just heat sink compound (5
watts dissipated by an 0.5" X 0.5" X 4.5" heat sink in free still air
keeping t(j) below 100C and t(sink) below 60C). This seems to be a
very ambitious engineering puzzle, for which there is no easy answer.
Several engineers at s.e.d. have described things they've done with
heat sinks that approach witchcraft, and getting their advice might be
a good idea.

Also, there happened to be some good advice on the heat sink compound
to use in my first post. If you'll look at the website I suggested,
you'd see the Ultrastick phase change product, which has thermal
conductivity ratings better than the others, and looks like it might be
a good starting point (and will probably be cost competitive with the
higher-priced silver-loaded stuff). With something like this, it might
be best to start with the best, then see what kind of margin you have
to play with (unfortunately, I have the suspicion that your margin is
negative already, and getting a really good heat sink compound will
just eliminate that as a source of dither). The manufacturer also will
provide samples, especially if they're talking to someone who is a
potentially good customer.

http://www.aavidthermalloy.com/products/options/greases.shtml

Nobody told you to shut up,

To be fair, I indicated that the OP should post more detailed info ( which
certainly needn't have encroached on an NDA ) or 'shut up'.
although I still feel you might get better
advice elsewhere. Sorry you feel that way.

(By the way, look closely at your mathematical modelling, check your
assumptions, and make sure you can actually accomplish what you want
first. I'm not too sure even a perfect heat sink of the size you
specify could do the job you need in non-computer-modelled free still
air.)

Good luck
Chris

It seems that you too have come to the same conclusion that the enclosure in
which this IC is to be installed is the limiting factor.

I despair sometimes at the poor level of practical skills in engineering
exhibited today - and especially by 'academics'. A basic understanding of heat
flow would have fixed this.

Something this simple should have been considered at the beginning. Leaving '
thermal manageent ' to the end is begging for failure. And sadly it looks like
failure is the conclusion here.

Graham
 
B

Bob Masta

Jan 1, 1970
0
I have a design project that is nearing the build and test phase. I
need some info re. thermal compounds for attaching a heatsink to an IC,
and I'm wondering if this is a good NG to request that info on, or if
someone would like to direct me to a more appropriate venue.
thanks all,
karinne

Just a note of caution: You may run across BeO (beryllium
oxide) touted as a good heat sink material. No doubt, but
be aware that the stuff is incredibly toxic if you get it into a
cut, breathe dust, etc. The manufactured ceramic pieces are
probably not a serious danger (compared to the raw metal or
powdered oxide), but not something to mess around with
as a prototype. No filing, grinding, etc, and handle it with
care. Personally, I'd avoid it if at all possible.

Best regards,


Bob Masta
dqatechATdaqartaDOTcom

D A Q A R T A
Data AcQuisition And Real-Time Analysis
www.daqarta.com
Home of DaqGen, the FREEWARE signal generator
 
T

Tim Williams

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bob Masta said:
Just a note of caution: You may run across BeO (beryllium
oxide) touted as a good heat sink material.

On a related question, what's your opinion of thermal paste vs. silicone
pads vs. mica vs. aluminum nitride or any other conductive ceramic, with or
without paste?

I'm interested in putting a half bridge of 600Vceo IGBTs on the same
heatsink (which will be copper, if I can cast and machine a slab suitably
:).

Tim
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
On a related question, what's your opinion of thermal paste vs. silicone
pads vs. mica vs. aluminum nitride or any other conductive ceramic, with or
without paste?

I'm interested in putting a half bridge of 600Vceo IGBTs on the same
heatsink (which will be copper, if I can cast and machine a slab suitably
:).

Tim

AlN is almost as good as BeO. Both should be used with filled silicone
paste. The problem with any insulator is its thickness... thermal
resistance is proportional to thickness, and it's hard to beat the 100
micro-inches of just silicone grease.

I like to mount an electrically hot semoconductor directly to a copper
heat spreader, and insulate *that* from the main heatsink. You can
increase the effective thermal footprint of the part many-fold.

Lateral heat spreading on a heatsink is a much-ignored issue, and a
spreader helps here, too.

John
 
T

Tim Williams

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ah yes, good point! But where do you get insulators for the nonstandard
footprint? Machinable AlN? Somehow I doubt that. :(

Tim
 
F

Fred Abse

Jan 1, 1970
0
I have a design project that is nearing the build and test phase. I
need some info re. thermal compounds for attaching a heatsink to an IC,
and I'm wondering if this is a good NG to request that info on, or if
someone would like to direct me to a more appropriate venue. thanks all,
karinne

Does "attaching" mean you need an adhesive, as well as thermally
conductive compound?

Look at:

http://www.dowcorning.com/applications/product_Finder/pf_main.asp?selIndustry=009&pg=00001122
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ah yes, good point! But where do you get insulators for the nonstandard
footprint? Machinable AlN? Somehow I doubt that. :(

Tim

One way is to hard-anodize the main heatsink, and the spreader as well
if it's aluminum. Then just use grease or epoxy. 0.001" of hard
anodize, chemically Sapphire, is a reliable insulator up to, say, 200
volts, and has a low thermal resistance.

You can buy AlN in slabs, cut to order, if you have modest quantities.
I haven't tried to machine it myself, but I'd bet you could work a
thin slab with a Dremel.

Or, bond the spreader to the main sink with thermal epoxy, using tiny
bits of mylar or monofilament as spacing shims, or load the epoxy with
just a dash of Cataphote glass beads to enforce spacing before it
cures.

Even better, don't insulate the semiconductor, insulate the entire
heatsink!

John
 
B

Bob Masta

Jan 1, 1970
0
AlN is almost as good as BeO. Both should be used with filled silicone
paste. The problem with any insulator is its thickness... thermal
resistance is proportional to thickness, and it's hard to beat the 100
micro-inches of just silicone grease.

I like to mount an electrically hot semoconductor directly to a copper
heat spreader, and insulate *that* from the main heatsink. You can
increase the effective thermal footprint of the part many-fold.

Lateral heat spreading on a heatsink is a much-ignored issue, and a
spreader helps here, too.

John

Of course, the simplest approach for standard items like
IGBTs is to buy parts that are already electrically insulated, then
just use silicone grease. I haven't checked out if the insulated parts
have higher thermal resistance than their hot counterparts, but they
sure are a snap to use!

Best regards,



Bob Masta
dqatechATdaqartaDOTcom

D A Q A R T A
Data AcQuisition And Real-Time Analysis
www.daqarta.com
Home of DaqGen, the FREEWARE signal generator
 
T

Tim Williams

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bob Masta said:
Of course, the simplest approach for standard items like
IGBTs is to buy parts that are already electrically insulated, then
just use silicone grease. I haven't checked out if the insulated parts
have higher thermal resistance than their hot counterparts, but they
sure are a snap to use!

I would love to have a 600V, 100A, high speed, half bridge IGBT module, but
a quad of 600V, 50A, TO-247's was cheaper ($44 from Allied, saved 10% vs.
Digikey!).

Tim
 
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