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propane to natural gas question

Discussion in 'Home Power and Microgeneration' started by 1234, Sep 9, 2004.

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  1. 1234

    1234 Guest

    Years ago natural gas conversions was they way to go.
    Seems now that the natural gas companys have most people converted they
    can screw us with all kinds of confusing bills. My last bill was 44.42
    CDN for 2 gigajules of fule for domestic hot water only.
    Here is a break down of the bill

    jul 29th-jul31 cost of gas 0.13 x 6.403000 = 0.83
    jul 31st-aug30th cost of gas 2.69 x 6.792000 = 18.27
    Administration Fee-fixed = 5.19
    Administration Fee-Variable = 0.04
    Cost of gas- Variable = 19.10
    Sub-Total = 24.33
    Gst = 1.71
    Current energy billing = 26.04

    Current disttributor Charges
    Delivery Charge-Fixed = 12.09
    Delivery Charge-Variable = 2.99
    Rate Rider = 0.87
    Storage Rider = 0.17cr
    production Rider = 0.41cr
    Municipal franchise Fee = 1.81
    Sub Total = 17.18
    Gst = 1.20
    Current Distributor Billing =18.38
    Total Amount Due (Retail & Distribution) = 44.42
    This works out to be allmost 20 buks per giga in the summer. The winter
    is another story they really screw with the numbers supply and demand
    bull crap. Seems to me I could buy my winter fuel when prices are low
    and do the storage my self.

    WTF is this crap I used allmost three gigs of fuel if they read my meter
    right??? The cost of the fuel was 19.10 Somehow they smoke screen it all
    and more than double my bill with all the other bull crap.
    Now in they winter I have seen the other fees on top of the cost of gas
    as high as 50.00 a month.

    My question is how many liters of propane would it take to do the same
    job giga whatever they call it to litres please. All these other fees
    they are charging me seem to cost me about what it would cost to go buy
    a couple of one hundred pound propane tanks and convert my hot water
    tank,stove and furnace jets etc.

    I do not heat my home for about 5 months a year at all with gas. I put
    electric heating in some areas of my home to make up for this and find
    it very compfy. Even though I have added some elecric heaters I was
    still able to reduce my power consumption by about 300 kw a month by
    cutting back in other areas (thats another story)

    I can do the rest of the math by myself the cost of conversion etc. I
    just need to know how many liters of propane compares to 1 gigajule of
    natural gas.
  2. Natural gas storage isn't easy...
    Talk to your local propane dealer about a conversion from NG to
    propane for your various NG appliances. They'll be able to tell you
    how much propane you'll use and how much you'll need to store, and
    whether the tanks will cost you money or not. Many places will 'give'
    you the tanks for free if you are on a regular fill service, but
    certain minimum (monthly?) usage may be nessesary to meet those
  3. Gunnar

    Gunnar Guest

    Hi 1234,

    I sympatize with you as I am using NG as well.

    Chances are that the gas company knows how much they can screw their
    customers as they most likely have done the calculations themselves re cost
    of other sources of energy, such as propane (with all associated costs for

    My suggestion to you is to look into a ground source heat pump for example.
    You did not indicate where you live but the colder the climate you have the
    faster the payback for the investment. (10-20000 dollars dependant on
    A heat pump may supply 3kW output for every 1 kW input... plus you get air
    condition as well for those hot summer days.

  4. 1234

    1234 Guest

    I guess i should have kept my question down to a one liner. I knew this
    would happen........
  5. 1234

    1234 Guest

    HUH what is a mtu?

  6. 1234

    1234 Guest

    I can see this is going to take awhile...sorry I live in the crows nest
    Pass about the same winter as Calgary Stampeded city.....we get about
    seven months of winter per year in total.....about four weeks of that is
    extreamly cold talking minus 30 celcius...I will pay the piper for those
    few weeks of big deal...I am talking about all the other
    fixed charge bull during the rest of the year seems utilitys have gotten
    gready....christ they make more on fixed and variable shit than the
    actuall cost of product. It only makes sense to buy from as few as
    possible yes no? Now that i am doing the math what does a killowatt of
    electric compare to from a gigajule of nat.gas?
  7. BigFatherA

    BigFatherA Guest

    A couple of numbers:

    1 GJ = 1000 MJ.

    1 kWh = 3.6 MJ. There are about 278 kWh worth of energy in your GJ of gas.

    1 l propane = 25.3 MJ. That's 39.5 litres of propane required to replace
    each GJ of gas.

    You will need to use your delivered rates to make an accurate comparison.
  8. 1234

    1234 Guest

    Hey thanks for the info. One more question how many litres is there in a
    20 lb and 100 lb bottle when 80% full.
  9. Gary

    Gary Guest

    Liquid propane weighs about 4.9 lb/gal, or 1.3 lb/liter

    Seems like a 100 lb tank at 80% fill should hold about:
    (100/1.3)(0.8) = 62 liters?
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