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Power supplies with solid polymer caps

D

Daniel Prince

Jan 1, 1970
0
I have read that electrolytic capacitors are the least reliable
component in power supplies. I have also read that there are
motherboards with solid polymer capacitors. Are there any power
supplies with solid polymer capacitors? Thank you in advance for
all replies.
 
P

Pen

Jan 1, 1970
0
Daniel said:
I have read that electrolytic capacitors are the least reliable
component in power supplies. I have also read that there are
motherboards with solid polymer capacitors. Are there any power
supplies with solid polymer capacitors? Thank you in advance for
all replies.
I've found pc coo;ing to be the most reliable supplier. Not always the
cheapest, but highly reliable.
http://www.pcpower.com/index.html
 
W

William Sommerwerck

Jan 1, 1970
0
If I interpret your question correctly, it's meaningless.

Polymer capacitors (ie, plastic-dielectric caps, such as polystryrene,
Mylar, and Teflon) simply cannot produce the huge capacitances in small
spaces that electrolytics can. They cannot easily replace electrolytics.
 
J

JW

Jan 1, 1970
0
If I interpret your question correctly, it's meaningless.

Polymer capacitors (ie, plastic-dielectric caps, such as polystryrene,
Mylar, and Teflon) simply cannot produce the huge capacitances in small
spaces that electrolytics can. They cannot easily replace electrolytics.

I think the OP is referring to claims such as these:
http://event.asus.com/mb/5000hrs_VRM/

*cough*
 
W

William Sommerwerck

Jan 1, 1970
0
If I interpret your question correctly, it's meaningless.
I think the OP is referring to claims such as these:
http://event.asus.com/mb/5000hrs_VRM
*cough*

*cough", indeed.

65 degrees C is 149 degrees F. I doubt that the average computer gets much
past 100 degrees. I'm also curious as to how they can get so much
capacitance in such a small space using plastic dielectrics.

I've owned electronic equipment (that I bought myself) for 45 years. The
/only/ piece of equipment that failed because of a bad electrolytic was a
JVC hall synthesizer, which was manufactured with a run of bad caps. (I have
two of these, and the second one also needs cap replacement, though I
haven't gotten around to it.)

It's true that electrolytics are among the least reliable of components --
but they're not /that/ unreliable.
 
W

William Sommerwerck

Jan 1, 1970
0
It's true that electrolytics are among the least reliable of
components --
Yeah, they are. I've personally changed a couple thousand - 10x more
than all other components combined - even mechanical wear out parts.

Yes, but you're a service technician. I'm talking as an owner.
 
W

William Sommerwerck

Jan 1, 1970
0
Depending on how stressful the position that they are used in - and many
such positions these days *are* - I would have to beg to differ. They really
are /that/ unreliable ...

If that's the case... then why have I had such good luck?

I just remembered another failure -- bypass caps in the video driver board
of my NAD.
 
M

Man-wai Chang to The Door (28800bps)

Jan 1, 1970
0
William said:
If I interpret your question correctly, it's meaningless.

Polymer capacitors (ie, plastic-dielectric caps, such as polystryrene,
Mylar, and Teflon) simply cannot produce the huge capacitances in small
spaces that electrolytics can. They cannot easily replace electrolytics.

How about ceramic caps?

--
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http://www.swd.gov.hk/tc/index/site_pubsvc/page_socsecu/sub_addressesa
 
W

William Sommerwerck

Jan 1, 1970
0
I also suspect that the eco-fanaticism that has given us lead-free
solder doesn't help either, as the elevated process temperatures
required to get this hateful stuff to stick to anything other than
itself, is known to not do some components a lot of good, and I'm
sure that, no matter how comparitively brief these additional
early-life heat stresses on the electros are, they have to be at
least another potentially destructive factor to consider in terms
of long life and reliability ...

I wonder what's going to happen when these lead-free joints start failing en
masse... I can just see a class-action suit against the European Economic
Community.
 
W

William Sommerwerck

Jan 1, 1970
0
I just remembered another "failure"...

Several years ago I bought a KLH Audio (sadly, now out of business) powered
woofer, which I tossed in the garage. A week ago I finally got around to
pulling it out and connecting to the LFE output of my BD player. (This was
intended mostly to keep the main speakers from being overdriven.)

When I turned it on and up its gain (that's "syllepsis"), it made "pumping"
noises, all on its own. After a few minutes of "charging up", this went
away. It would seem that after a few years of non-use, one or more bypass
caps had deformed, allowing instability.

I used to own several KLH Model Eight radios, and though they were 45 years
old, none needed a capacitor replacement.
 
B

Baron

Jan 1, 1970
0
Arfa said:
As far as your contention that most of the caps that fail are running
at under 60 deg and are not in hotspots, that may be true if you are
talking just mobos, which are a bit of a special case in that apart
from all the problems that have been caused in the past with boards
built using caps with fake electrolyte, the caps that fail are all
decouplers on constant DC rails, and are rated voltage wise pretty
close to the continuous voltages that are applied to them. Even
accepting that, many of the decoupling caps that do fail on mobos, are
sited very close (by nature of the job that they have to do) to LSIs
which *do* run very hot.

The caps that I am talking more about in general, are on switch mode
power supplies, where they are subjected to huge stresses from the
high frequency pulse currents that they have to endure, and the self
heating caused by this in all but the most expensive types, very
specifically specced for use in these positions. Further, the ones
that fail most regularly are, without doubt, the ones positioned close
to heatsinks. I replace hundreds every year in the course of my daily
work. Although the caps positioned on switchers are by far the most
common ones to fail, they are by no means the only ones. I also
replace many in other circuits, for instance audio output stages,
where failed ones are almost invariably close to heatsinks.

I'm in complete agreement with Arfa. Internal heating caused by the
ever increasing switch mode power supply frequencies is the most common
cause of failure. High external temperatures don't help one bit since
it reduces the components ability to get rid of internally generated
heat.

A place where I'm finding more and more capacitor failures is in the
memory supply voltage regulator circuits, sometimes causing CPU failure
in addition to memory damage.
 
D

Daniel Prince

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jeff Liebermann said:
Sure. However, they're very difficult to identify without back
tracking the part number or chopping one in half and looking for the
black goo inside. The clue is that they tend to be short and not very
tall, while conventional electrolytics are much taller:

Both Asus and Gigabyte make motherboards that they claim use all
solid polymer capacitors. I doubt that they would lie about
something like that.
 
D

Daniel Prince

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jeff Liebermann said:
Yeah, but along with the general decrease in quality, there has been
proportional decrease in price. It's price that driving the decline
in quality. Running the operating temperature and voltages near the
point of failure is one way to save on costs.


They wouldn't make junk if consumers didn't demand low prices. There
are usually "premium" versions of almost any consumer product, but few
can afford the price. (If you want quality, be prepared to pay for
it).

How much would the retail cost of a computer power supply or
motherboard etc. increase if they were made to last twice as long?
Five times as long? Ten times as long?
 
D

Daniel Prince

Jan 1, 1970
0
William Sommerwerck said:
If I interpret your question correctly, it's meaningless.

Polymer capacitors (ie, plastic-dielectric caps, such as polystryrene,
Mylar, and Teflon) simply cannot produce the huge capacitances in small
spaces that electrolytics can. They cannot easily replace electrolytics.
How much bigger (in volume) are polymer capacitors than
electrolytics for the same value?

Are there any types of capacitors with substantially better life
than electrolytics that are small enough to replace electrolytics?
If so, how do they compare in price?
 
D

Daniel Prince

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jeff Liebermann said:
The problems start when there are competing products. I call it the
Walmart effect. Walmart, Kmart, and many online vendors specialize in
selling solely on the basis of price. If there are two competing
products, differing only a few pennies in selling price, *ALL* their
orders will go to the lower priced product, with nothing to the higher
priced equivalent. Walmart aggravates the effect by setting the price
at some artificial low level, and challenging their vendors to meet
their price goal.

It seems to me that there is a good opportunity here for other
retailers. If a retailer sold only electronic goods that were well
made and well designed, they could sell them for ten to thirty
percent more than the junk sold at Walmart and Kmart.

I think many consumers would be willing to pay a little extra for
devices that would probably last four to ten times as long. This
would be especially true if they had two (or more) cheap-junk brand
devices fail.

The retailer could require vendors to only use non-junk capacitors
with voltage ratings at least three times the voltage the capacitors
would be exposed to. They could also require that no part of the
device ever get more than 30 degrees warmer than the temperature of
the room it is used in.

The devices could have much longer warranties and the store could
advertise itself as "The quality store". I do not think this would
require excessive advertising, especially after the first few years.
 
A

Allodoxaphobia

Jan 1, 1970
0
The good part about all this is that problem products just don't last
very long. Soon after the problems are found, the replacements appear
in the stores. The replacements have all the latest features, use all
the latest designs, and follow all the latest fashion trends.

... and are cursed with brand new problems.
 
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