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Power saving speculation

Woo-Woo Discussion in 'Twilight Zone' started by anwaypasible, Jul 8, 2013.

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  1. anwaypasible

    anwaypasible

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    Jun 3, 2013
    i cant afford to build this concept, and i havent gone to school for it yet either (looking to start in the winter, but i think fall hours are closing next month and i missed the window).


    first of all..
    i want to dive into the deepest thought about whether this concept is generally healthy for batteries.. because it might not be.
    yes it might seem like a great way to extend the life of batteries inbetween solar panel charges .. or maybe an investment worth looking into for solar panels that have become much weaker since they were new (if that happens, i dont know.. only an uninformed & inexperienced guess).
    because if batteries are meant to dish out a specific voltage, general concept theory says the voltage will be the same.. but the amperage draw would be less.

    what might not be idle function..
    maybe the battery trips, falls, doesnt want to get back up without being put on a machine to revitalize the insides.

    i have a somewhat hard time saying which reason the concept is for..
    because there are things in use usually on a daily basis that it would help with.
    electric stove
    electric water heater
    or the entertainment devices in the living room.

    obviously some suck up more power than others when they are on... but sometimes the amount of time they are on amounts to more or less than the others.

    anyways..
    this concept might not make a whole lot of sense if your electric bill isnt high to begin with, because of being on the natural gas for the water heater or stove.


    lets say it is for a stove.. you start with 240 volts input .. immediately you need to know how many amps to deal with.
    then you step down that 240 volts with a transformer (with the needed amperage allowable)
    bringing it down to something like 12 volts for maximum savings.
    then you need to boost the 12 volts with the magic of the magnet instead of drawing in electricity that makes the monthly bill higher.
    bringing it back up to the 240 volts with the needed amperage allowable in the coil .. ground is ground like having a grounding rod in the dirt with the wire connected to it (because if you did, that is where it would go)

    it might not be exactly 12 volts.. but somewhere around there is what you are pulling from the line to power the stove.


    i went on ebay looking at electrical stoves to note how much power they draw.
    i seen one that was about 3,000 watts
    i seen another one that was about 4,000 watts

    then i seen some of those tankless water heaters and they want something like 120 amps on three circuit breakers that add up to 150 amps.

    what i like to think about amperage is.. the voltage might be there, and you can stare at the voltage in the doorway all night.. but the moment you try to talk to the voltage, it will fade away like gas or a ghost.

    i seen mostly 200 amp circuit breaker boxes.. and some 100 amp circuit breaker boxes.

    as i was peddling alone thinking about wiring up one 120 volt concept box with enough amperage to satisfy the electrical box.. it became clear two things:
    1. how to install the box safely
    2. realizing exactly how dangerous they can be

    enough voltage without amperage can cause damage.. probably more than the 120 or 240 volts from the wall.
    but amperage is what gives the electricity its power to cause damage.

    when a coil puts out 200 amps.. there isn't a 10 - 15 amp circuit breaker there to protect you (especially if the device connected to the concept needs roughly 200 amps)

    thus.. the concept box is certainly not something you can toss behind the stove.

    i think this is where electricians come to enjoy their metal conduit as much as they do, because it keeps the consumer far enough away from the danger.. when usually the only danger is the power line coming into the house that goes into the breaker box.

    i would imagine the line goes in to the house.. through the main breaker.. out to the concept box.. then the goofy problem arises, because you cant touch the circuit breaker rails twice...
    that would require a box to hold the main circuit breaker as the line comes into the house
    then run it to the circuit breaker with its second main breaker (saves the concept box)
    then all the circuit breakers on down as usual.

    it makes me ponder & giggle.. because saving $30 - $50 per month isn't the same as saving $100 or more.
    i think $50 is kinda pushing it really.. and $75 would be fantastic too.

    i lived in an old house were the insulation all fell in the walls.. my mother and i ran up a $500 gas bill in a few short months.
    seems like the gas is the culprit to avoid.
    and when you begin a journey.. the end of the journey is being totally off the grid where blackouts happen but your house still has electricity.. especially useful if you are willing to help matters any as if providing a service for your community.


    i think many of us doing really consider what the threshold is for the power going out and people knocking on the door looking for light or electricity.
    something as simple as a power strip outside (or even a couple of 'em) to allow your neighbors the chance to charge up their cell phone.
    maybe allowing people to bring over their microwave and cook some food if they were stuck with an electric stove.

    it should be practical & free considering you are getting the power from the sun.
    and i'm not saying help everybody until the batteries go dead.. because that adjective is where the help stops.


    my internet must be filtered.. because i'm not getting enough transformers showing up in my web results.

    i recall the possibility to wind your own transformer.. and that might prove useful filling in 120v outlets since they are all 20 amp circuits anyways.

    a circuit breaker on the device should heat up faster than waiting for 30ft of cable to heat up.. because i do imagine it works like a thermal conductor a little bit for the circuit breaker.

    i'm not saying the savings will be enough to finally go out there and buy a used xbox 360 to play with.. but we might not be with a choice.

    this is how entire intelligent families start to save some money and put it together into one lump sum that might help change the world (an accessory to help perhaps.. but maybe the cost of simply being there staying in a hotel is all it takes .!)
    maybe it leads to investment opportunities.
    investments state one of two things:
    1. the product gets more heavy duty thanks to more investors
    2. the product exists to expand a menu when otherwise it wasnt going to be there at all

    the only way to flip profit is to start low.

    nature, time, & patience are the three biggest healers
     
  2. duke37

    duke37

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    Jan 9, 2011
    Changing the voltage will not affect the power required to drive a microwave or oven. Dropping from 240V to 12V means that you will need different circuitry and cables 20 times as thick.

    Home produced power is expensive, if you wish to save, then get the house insulated properly.

    I think you should study physics to get the basic ideas otherwise you will be inventing things tht will not work.
     
  3. anwaypasible

    anwaypasible

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    Jun 3, 2013
    yeah.. what does seem like a stretch is not being able to find a transformer the right size.
    because then the question is, how much of the extra amperage is going to 'push' its way onto whatever is plugged in.
    some might want or need the boost, while the device plugged in might hate it.

    from what i know of physics, the electrons should be able to move back and forth on the wire unless the AC current doesnt allow it because of the signal it is (as if riding a wave on a surfboard).

    if i have to go by amount of shock to the body to tell me the price on the monthly bill.. it is something i can safely think about.

    there's a ton of computer power supplies that drop 120 volts down to 12 volts with more than 20 amps on the rail.
    to me that says wire the coil up backwards to bring 12 volts up to 120 ..then stay within the amperage written for the rail.
    if you are over 20 amps.. then you are already over the circuit breaker, and you should probably install a circuit breaker on the line before the outlets instead of relying on the wirestrip's circuit breaker.

    i hate to think there is something in my head to grasp for.. then the economy tells me every which way about how it is unavailable.

    i suppose searching in the trash isnt any fun anymore either?
    i've been to the scrap yard for a muffler shop and i did enjoy the sights i seen in the pile of metal.

    solar powered houses run off the batteries, and as long as you've got a pool of them to last without going dead.. maybe you could charge them with less solar panels.
    especially when considering how fast you are pulling power from the batteries.

    the power invertors are about the same cost as the computer supplies.

    i dont know what studying physics and viewing an individual electron worm on a wire is going to do when that worm cant be experimented with using a microscope.

    i imagine the magnet of a transformer places a hold, as if a flood in a dam, that causes some accumulation.. and from the accumulation is when there is enough expelling energy to jump the gap of the transformer.
    its like radiation therapy.. and the part that brings confidence is knowing there is a gap between the two wires in the transformer.

    i also heard the magnet helps excite the second coil for better absorption.
    i would imagine at best, the magnet divides things in two.. one side for positive and the other side for negative.
    (if not divide.. happens naturally)



    or by 'study physics' did you say 'use a voltage rectifier' ?
     
  4. (*steve*)

    (*steve*) ¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd Moderator

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    Can I offer you one small hint.

    SIMPLIFY.

    One simple question, with your mind focused.

    Otherwise it's a case of TL;DR
     
  5. duke37

    duke37

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    Jan 9, 2011
    By studying physics I meant learn about volts, amps, watts, resistance, frequency, inductance, capacitance. When you know what these mean, you can get your mind boggled with thermodynamics and entropy!

    I used to use an electron microscope, it had a lot of very energetic electrons but I never found a worm.:)
     
  6. BobK

    BobK

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    Jan 5, 2010
    You seem to have the misconception that amps determine power. No, amps * volts = power. If you reduce voltage from 240 to 12 you can get 20 times the amps (minus some losses) but the power is the same. If you bump the 12V back up to 240, you will get 1/20th the amps and again the power is the same. The conversions are not 100% efficient, so your scheme actually would use more power to do the same thing.

    Bob
     
  7. CDRIVE

    CDRIVE Hauling 10' pipe on a Trek Shift3

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    May 8, 2012
    Wow! When I began reading the first post I thought it sounded like more of the typical magic energy saving babble. I reserve judgment because the post was so long that my eyes glazed over causing me to loose interest. :rolleyes:

    Chris
     
  8. anwaypasible

    anwaypasible

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    Jun 3, 2013
    heh, i was drowsy and i knew i jumped more than a few tracks as i was going down the page writing it.

    although, i do believe it is possible to bring the context of passion for each component piece into light for the words 'one simple question, with your mind focused'
    ..except instead of a comma, perhaps a semicolon for ratio.
    (or maybe a forward slash)


    i think the first half was well said.
    the second one is rather nonsense.. but i did say earlier in a different thread, my mental track needs more than what was given.

    feels like i am forced to decode secret service or dont speak at all (unless i'm starting a new thread)
     
  9. anwaypasible

    anwaypasible

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    Jun 3, 2013
    well if it is any consolation..
    the one's from that list that i'm not thoroughly familiar with are watts & inductance.
    i'm thinking there are articles to read about those two things, i just dont know if i'm going to enjoy the way it is written.
    (been happening to me a lot the last few years)


    something i say to liven up the time spent...
    from the ground to the sky.
    and that means, take the energy around you.. plant your feet.. let your energy cast out into the depths of space.. be proud you are one of the people mentally capable of such exercise.
     
  10. anwaypasible

    anwaypasible

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    Jun 3, 2013
    i realize if an outlet has 120v out with 20 amps... then that should translate to 200 amps for 12 volts.

    i also know about those math equations to find voltage from amps & watts.. or watts from voltage & amps.

    it is true i dont know a whole lot about watts.. but based on the math equation, it seems to be a number coming from voltage and amps, thus there really isnt any second layer other than the labeling.
    but without knowing fully what watts are.. it wouldnt suprise me to find a piece of hardware claiming a specific voltage and amperage - then with a wattage number that directly disrespects the math equation.
    if and|or when that happens, it would incite definition for what watts truly are.

    for all i know.. watts could be specific pieces of the AC waveform.. and thus how many of those pieces flow per second.
    and that means something possible like sending specific custom chunks of those pieces without the rest of the waveform to keep the voltage and amperage rate down.
    but that should be expected for any hardware device input that is known to work with custom pieces in a waveform.
    that is where FIR math gets used.. it is also probably specific for rotating motors (perhaps more than heating elements)
    but then again.. metal elements and ceramic elements and lots of need for heat.. it is a real question if motors get more FIR than heating elements.
     
  11. (*steve*)

    (*steve*) ¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd Moderator

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    Jan 21, 2010
    I'm not sure *exactly* what you mean, but long rambling posts are really hard to follow.

    Just start with something very simple that states what you want to do and what you need to know.

    So remove everything like this stuff which is (I think) totally irrelevant to your problem -- whatever that is.
     
  12. (*steve*)

    (*steve*) ¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd Moderator

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    Jan 21, 2010
    Let me try to illustrate how to simplify this (and it means I'm going to have to read it and try to understand it...

    I have no experience with electronics but I have an idea.

    My idea is to extend the life of batteries but I don't know if it will damage them.

    I want to reduce the current drawn from them (???)

    meaningless????

    I don't know what this would be useful for.

    Different things use different amounts of power at different rates.

    First idea is to use another energy source

    Second idea is to reduce the voltage

    I don't know what voltage that might be


    Stoves use 3 to 4 kW

    Water heaters use 120A

    I don't understand voltage

    I have seen circuit breakers.

    I know that electricity is dangerous.

    I know voltage and current play a part in this danger.

    I really don't understand

    I really don't understand

    I think metal conduit exists to make wiring safe.

    I really don't understand

    I know that $100 is more than $30. And that $75 is between the two.

    Having insulation can reduce heating costs

    So I'll avoid using gas to heat a house.

    I want to have off-grid power and enough excess to provide power for my neighbours.

    I have no idea...

    I want to give power away.

    Lots of power...

    Solar power is free

    But I don't want to give away so much that I have none left for myself.

    I can't google.

    I know you can make transformers for (some obscure purpose).

    Circuit breakers are better than heating up cable.

    I don't know how much money I can save, but it won't be much.

    If I say you're smart, will you give me money?

    meaningless verbage.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2013
  13. (*steve*)

    (*steve*) ¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd Moderator

    25,192
    2,694
    Jan 21, 2010
    OK, now let's see what this boil down to:

    Great. The first thing you need to do is to study to determine if your idea is based on something that is sound.

    That's a major problem.

    Yeah, that can reduce power needed from another source.

    OK, here is your first major issue. You need to understand what voltage is, and the relationships between voltage, current, power, time, and energy.

    Good, we have a lot of people who come here not realising that.

    Great. Sometimes people don't understand that both play a part in the danger.

    If only...

    No, solar power tends to be quite expensive. Even more so if you have to store it in batteries.

    It's probably good that you see you're not expecting to save huge amounts of money (if you were you'd have to ask why people weren't doing it already)

    No
     
  14. anwaypasible

    anwaypasible

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    Jun 3, 2013
    i realize if an outlet has 120v out with 20 amps... then that should translate to 200 amps for 12 volts.

    i also know about those math equations to find voltage from amps & watts.. or watts from voltage & amps.

    it is true i dont know a whole lot about watts.. but based on the math equation, it seems to be a number coming from voltage and amps, thus there really isnt any second layer other than the labeling.
    but without knowing fully what watts are.. it wouldnt suprise me to find a piece of hardware claiming a specific voltage and amperage - then with a wattage number that directly disrespects the math equation.
    if and|or when that happens, it would incite definition for what watts truly are.

    for all i know.. watts could be specific pieces of the AC waveform.. and thus how many of those pieces flow per second.
    and that means something possible like sending specific custom chunks of those pieces without the rest of the waveform to keep the voltage and amperage rate down.
    but that should be expected for any hardware device input that is known to work with custom pieces in a waveform.
    that is where FIR math gets used.. it is also probably specific for rotating motors (perhaps more than heating elements)
    but then again.. metal elements and ceramic elements and lots of need for heat.. it is a real question if motors get more FIR than heating elements.


    **edit**

    what i come to realize is these components of electricity that exist, and have existed for a long time.
    wikipedia says the earliest descriptions of magnets are from 2,500 years ago.
    you gotta think.. whatever metal (wire) they had wrapped around the new substance was probably insulated to prevent it from mixing in with the new substance (magnet).
    to say the transformers are 2,400 years old or simply 2,000 years old ...
    i know the thickness of the wire is going to limit how much amperage will go through a transformer.
    (nobody should be melting wire because it was too thin)

    you imply that if i lower the voltage, the amperage will bleed through.. resulting in a new amps * volts = power equation that equals the same power despite the lower voltage.
    yet the second portion says if i bump up 12 volts to 240 there is going to be amperage losses.
    the answer to the riddle is.. yes a transformer can limit amperage as well as voltage.
    the first step is to lower the voltage.. then get the amperage just a little bit over what the second transformer needs to pass along a full supply of amperage to whatever is plugged in.

    if the first transformer has much more amperage than necessary, i imagine that is the begging moment where amperage leaking could suprise either the second transformer or the hardware device plugged in.

    i feel like there is a lot of floating emphasis on whether the electricity stays until it gets sucked on.. or if there are leakages that could possible ruin the heating element from being overdriven.
    maybe a leak is small and you gotta set the heating element back 150 - 200 degrees to get the right temperature.
    it isnt perfect.. and the only thing professional about it is being able to ask the person if they are willing to live with it.
    that is..
    until thinking about what all that leakage is doing to the line and whatever is plugged in resting at idle.
    maybe it breaks the oven prematurely at the input circuit for the voltage .. maybe a capacitor sitting in there or a relay that gets its prongs heated up and thus a sticky (or unsticky) relay.

    i just hate to think we are as close as we are to being simply socially (perhaps mentally too) divided about life.
    thats like saying the military uses it multiple times a day, but people simply arent allowed to use one in the comfort of their home.. all because somebody put a signature on a piece of paper that addresses civilization.
    as if that person is going to be there to organize the large number of complaints, seperating those that deserve it (Or need it) compared to those that dont.

    i dont think this is mingling enough for me, as if to help fuel my passion while sitting in school (or leading up to registering).
    sure i could read a bunch of forum threads about the minute.. but it doesnt satisfy any if i dont know the previous step (as well as the future step)
    unlike most people.. i cant afford to simply dive into a project & seek out confidence.. that is why i must use my brain.
    it's the same thing to be used while in school .. it's the same thing to be used helping other people after graduation.

    i believe there was a moment where it was brought up about the situation not going as planned.
    but once again my mental track needs more to conversate with any sense of progress.
    it's like somebody said no and i'm expected to wrestle comments off.
    seems to be a social recession as if people are fighting for secrecy to keep their monthly bills paid .. i dont like it.
    there are people out there in the world that arent in the same state, but could come across a project idea and fit it into their life.
    i think about the people helped.. which is why i come back speaking of errors or possible mistakes.

    maybe we can give this project some confidence before tax return season.
    sorry in advance if i came across too pushy.. i just dont like being the only one talking something up while other people are talking it down without as much effort.
     
  15. anwaypasible

    anwaypasible

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    Jun 3, 2013
    this sounds like one of those times when there is a pool of quality.. then the wires (or the device) resistance was too high (Or low) ... caused the pool of quality to glaze over, amounting to loose interest (waste of premium price).
     
  16. anwaypasible

    anwaypasible

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    Jun 3, 2013

    i cant afford to do.

    i dont NEED to know anything.

    is that a polite request that i simply stop coming to the forum?
     
  17. anwaypasible

    anwaypasible

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    Jun 3, 2013
    i dont know if you call the machine's technique 'meaningless????'
    but i had a vehicle battery i thought was bad... the guy hooked it up to a machine, said it tested okay and that it should be good to go.

    'Great. The first thing you need to do is to study to determine if your idea is based on something that is sound.'


    quite honestly.. what i need to do is realize i can't move my situation any faster than the other half of the equation i am communicating with to progress my situation.
    that means this 230 sq ft apartment .. possibly missing the window deadline to register for college
    i've already been waiting on them for an entire month .. there has to be some inbetween time that supports life.

    what i took from your post was worry about how much information about voltage will i learn in college.

    how do they trim information.. as if to say an associate degree gets some, then a higher level degree gets the rest?
    i would love to hear what the expected limits of the college degree is.. because the point is to go above and beyond my expectations to make me feel good.
     
  18. (*steve*)

    (*steve*) ¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd Moderator

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    Jan 21, 2010
    No, it's advice you should follow if you want assistance.

    You don't need assistance?!?!???!?!
     
  19. eKretz

    eKretz

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    Apr 8, 2013
    Ay caramba!
     
  20. (*steve*)

    (*steve*) ¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd Moderator

    25,192
    2,694
    Jan 21, 2010
    I see words, but I don't see any meaning.

    You apparently seem to think that knowledge is not necessary as long as you have an idea. Or I think that's what you're saying because you have a very poor way of expressing yourself.

    Would you like us to explain voltage and current to you, and their relationship with power and energy?

    You seem to be weak in that area.
     
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