Possibility of autopilot for jet boat

[Larry]

I have a three year old Bombardier Utopia 185. It is powered by a Mercury
200 hp jet drive. I would like to use this for fishing, but you absolutely
cannot take your hands off the wheel, particularly at low speeds. Steering
is accomplished by a push pull cable arangement which connects to a
steerable pipe under water.

I've been trying to find an autopilot that would work at trolling speeds,
but have been able to find anything. The Nautamatic TR1 requires hydraulic
steering, the Raymarine Sport Pilot Plus require some kind of rudder
feedback which would mean attaching a cylinder or rotary actuator under
water and none of them appear waterproof. The factory has told me that the
plain Sport Pilot would not work because a jet boat responds too quickly.

Anyone have any ideas? Thanks,

 

[Jack Erbes]

Anyone have any ideas? Thanks,

No friction clutches or drag adjustments on any of the cables or turning
spools? Maybe you could add one somewhere.

Jack

 

[Larry]

No friction clutches or drag adjustments on any of the cables or turning
spools? Maybe you could add one somewhere.

Jack

The cable is a single cable - push/pull. Not certain how I could change
that in any way. That said, there is no slack in it at all, so I am
wondering why rudder feedback is even needed.

 

[Philip]

The cable is a single cable - push/pull. Not certain how I could change
that in any way. That said, there is no slack in it at all, so I am
wondering why rudder feedback is even needed.
--

Larry
email is rapp at lmr dot com
09/14/05 10:04:52 AM

Larry,
look at fitting something like the Raymarine ST3000 wheel pilot. This is as
fitted to my motorsailer with push-pull steering, and does not need a rudder
feedback. Also, the compass unit is in the control head, so only the control
head and drive motor fitted, with belt drive to the steering wheel.

The ST4000 (I believe) requires a separate compass unit.

Go to the Raymarine website for some more information.

regards,
Philip.

 

[Jack Erbes]

The cable is a single cable - push/pull. Not certain how I could change
that in any way. That said, there is no slack in it at all, so I am
wondering why rudder feedback is even needed.

If you can turn the jet by hand and the wheel will go with it, maybe one
of the accessory market autopilots made for use with tiller steered
boats or for direct attachment to motors can be made to work.

You basically need to find a place with enough room where you can anchor
one end of an autopilot attached to a point on the jet that will swivel
it right and left. Here is a link to one made by Raymarine as an
example, there are others on the market. Check out places and catalogs
like West Marine or BoatUS to get some others to consider:

http://tinyurl.com/7v66k

You might be a fringe market, seems like most of the jet boat drivers
want to do it by hand so that they can quickly irritate every single
other boat driver within their vision. I'm joking of course, no insult
intended.

Jack

 

[johnhh]

Simrad makes a "Virtual feedback" pilot. Also their Mechanical drive has
built in feedback. I've no idea what kind of drive unit you need or if they
have one that would work for you.
http://www.simradusa.com/1-virtualpilot.php

 

[Larry]

Larry,
look at fitting something like the Raymarine ST3000 wheel pilot. This is as
fitted to my motorsailer with push-pull steering, and does not need a rudder
feedback. Also, the compass unit is in the control head, so only the control
head and drive motor fitted, with belt drive to the steering wheel.

The ST4000 (I believe) requires a separate compass unit.

Go to the Raymarine website for some more information.

regards,
Philip.

Thanks, Philip,

Well, I asked Raymarine and they said the ST3000 would not work, nor will
any unit they manufacture. He said that use of any autopilot with a jet
boat requires something which sends the cpu the actual position of the
rudder (jet in my case). Also, it would be extremely difficult to attach a
motor to the wheel as there is no room.

 

[Larry]

If you can turn the jet by hand and the wheel will go with it, maybe one
of the accessory market autopilots made for use with tiller steered
boats or for direct attachment to motors can be made to work.

You basically need to find a place with enough room where you can anchor
one end of an autopilot attached to a point on the jet that will swivel
it right and left. Here is a link to one made by Raymarine as an
example, there are others on the market. Check out places and catalogs
like West Marine or BoatUS to get some others to consider:

http://tinyurl.com/7v66k

You might be a fringe market, seems like most of the jet boat drivers
want to do it by hand so that they can quickly irritate every single
other boat driver within their vision. I'm joking of course, no insult
intended.

Jack

Thanks, Jack,

You bet we're a fringe market! However, this isn't a jetski, it's an
actual boat! In fact, one of the finest boats you can buy - Hinckley -
uses jet drives. They have the advantage of having nothing hanging below
the bottom to get banged up by rocks. Thus, it is uniquely equipped for
fishing in shallow water providing you don't suck up mud into the pump!

The problem is that the steering mechanism for the jet is under water.
Thus, any drive which moves the jet also has to be. Nautamatic suggested I
replace the steering mechanism with a hydraulic one, but that is close to
impossible.

 

[Larry]

Simrad makes a "Virtual feedback" pilot. Also their Mechanical drive has
built in feedback. I've no idea what kind of drive unit you need or if they
have one that would work for you.
http://www.simradusa.com/1-virtualpilot.php

Thanks, I'll give them a call.

 

[Philip]

Thanks, Philip,

Well, I asked Raymarine and they said the ST3000 would not work, nor will
any unit they manufacture. He said that use of any autopilot with a jet
boat requires something which sends the cpu the actual position of the
rudder (jet in my case). Also, it would be extremely difficult to attach
a
motor to the wheel as there is no room.
--

Larry
email is rapp at lmr dot com
09/15/05 11:32:52 AM

Larry,
I hear what they say, but my ST3000 has no feedback or any way of knowing
where the rudder is when I engage the drive. It just uses the compass to
keep a heading and adjust steering to keep on course.

It is a pity it will not fit, but other than this, I don't think the person
you spoke to actually knew the unit and its capability properly - if at all.

regards,
Philip

 

[Jack Erbes]

Thanks, Jack,

You bet we're a fringe market! However, this isn't a jetski, it's an
actual boat! In fact, one of the finest boats you can buy - Hinckley -
uses jet drives. They have the advantage of having nothing hanging below
the bottom to get banged up by rocks. Thus, it is uniquely equipped for
fishing in shallow water providing you don't suck up mud into the pump!

You're right, I just looked at them on the SeaDoo page. No insult
intended with my remark about the jetski drivers.

The problem is that the steering mechanism for the jet is under water.
Thus, any drive which moves the jet also has to be. Nautamatic suggested I
replace the steering mechanism with a hydraulic one, but that is close to
impossible.

Okay, I have a better image now. There aren't any cross sections or
manuals on that page though, so I don't have any idea what's "inside the
box". There is nothing at all in the way of a moving part in a dry area
where a push/pull arm could be attached and an actuator could be
mounted? If there was, one of the lighter models that have a hand
control box on a cable might could be made to work.

Jack

 

[Larry]

Thus, it is uniquely equipped for

MUD isn't the problem. This Sport Jet ISN'T the kind of jet for shallow
water fishing, like the Australians produce. If the smallest rock gets
sucked up through that intake grate and lodges between the spinning
impeller and the VERY CLOSELY POSITIONED stator vanes behind it, the right-
angle gearcase in the pump simply is torn apart before the pin shears. You
might as well throw the pump away. A new complete Sport Jet is cheaper.

Mud isn't any problem at all, nor is weeds, all of which are soft. I added
the "Salad Shooter" intake grate Merc makes to replace the cheap one the
OEMs buy. This grate opens to allow weeds to be sucked into the pump and
VOILA! World's Largest Salad Shooter comes shooting out the back.

Take a former Sport Jet owner's advise, for your own good. DON'T LET THAT
INTAKE GRATE GET ANYWHERE WITHIN THREE FEET OF THE BOTTOM, even in mud!
There's always that little rock or other piece of hard crap in there that
will just make your Sport Jet ownership SUCK!

Question - When was the last time you had the stator off the pump to change
the rear bearing lube oil and carefully inspect the shaft seal that keeps
the water out of the poorly-designed bearing? Ever seen its guts? I
learned how from a Merc mechanic. When he took it apart, we found the
shaft seal GONE! The damned Mercury Platinum Dealer's expert mechanic
didn't seat it properly and the shaft just tore it off, running the bearing
on seawater, sand and what little oil didn't leak out. I learned how to do
it myself so it wouldn't happen again. Your dealer hasn't a clue about
Sport Jets and DOESN'T WANT TO KNOW.... He fixes OUTBOARDS.

If you take it apart, be SURE to put grease on the 4 stainless bolts that
screw into the cheap aluminum housing.....OR THEY'LL SEIZE! It took us
over an hour to work them loose without breaking them off INSIDE the
housing. My mechanic gave up. I took R-22 refrigerant and froze the bolt
to -50 C by dripping liquid freon onto the bolt head, shrinking the whole
bolt. That was the only way it will come off. DON'T LET THEM HEAT IT WITH
A TORCH as it will really screw up the Merc paint job and ruin the pump.
Freezing the bolts, then working them back and forth, got mine off. They
were hard seized! STUPID DEALERS! The grease keeps the electrolysis from
INSIDE the bolt holes just fine.

Just a few hints. I loved my Sport Jet, the 175hp carb'd model. Mine was
a Sea Rayder F16XR2 16' yellow with purple bimini. Chick magnet!

Oh, one more hint to save your Sport Jet.......
Take the flywheel off the top of it with a proper puller. The core of the
stator coils (about $300 at a dealer) is OPEN TO THE WET! Idiots....My
first one rusted solid, shorting out the magnetic fields and stranding me
with no spark! Before yours rusts solid, and it will, GREASE the surface
of the soft iron cores wherever you can see them around where the magnets
whirl around the outside of them. Grease up the inside of the flywheel,
too, to keep the magnets from corroding all up. The new core, an
aftermarket product better than Mercury's, never rusted or corroded at all
coated with a nice layer of marine grease....(c; The guy I sold it to has
never had a problem with it in 2 years.

Remove the chinzy oil injection made out of PLASTIC and all its plumbing.
The hole the pump fits into has a cover plate you can get from the dealer
for free after you remove the gear drive. Every new powerhead has this
coverplate on it and dealers just toss them away as they re-install the oil
injection nightmare. Mix your fuel at 40:1, oil company brands TC-W3. 1
quart to every 10 gallons of gas...or close to that, not critical. After a
thousand hours of running premix gas, the inside of the cylinders is barely
worn, the rings still real tight and in good condition and all the bearings
in the crankcase are LUBED, not dry like 100:1 oil injection the way the
greenies and government bureaucrats want them. The new owner still mixes
oil at 40:1 in the tank and at 1600 hours on a 1997 Sport Jet it purrs like
a kitten. LOTS of powerheads are blown by oil injection failures, STILL!

 

[Larry]

Larry,
I hear what they say, but my ST3000 has no feedback or any way of knowing
where the rudder is when I engage the drive. It just uses the compass to
keep a heading and adjust steering to keep on course.

It is a pity it will not fit, but other than this, I don't think the person
you spoke to actually knew the unit and its capability properly - if at all.

regards,
Philip

I agree with both. I'm in a bind in that I am willing to spend the money,
but ONLY if I can make something that works. I wish there were a way to
connect a plain ordinary Sport Pilot to my wheel as it does not require
rudder feedback and it will fit. That way I could test and see how bad it
really is. Likewise the ST3000. The guy to whom I spoke seemed concerned
that a jet boat tends to respond very quickly to changes in the tube
(corresponds with a rudder). If there were a way to vary the sensitivity
of the unit, I might gamble.... Again, thanks for your help, Philip.

 

[Larry]

On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 19:53:34 -0400, Jack Erbes wrote:

....snip

You're right, I just looked at them on the SeaDoo page. No insult
intended with my remark about the jetski drivers.

None taken.

Okay, I have a better image now. There aren't any cross sections or
manuals on that page though, so I don't have any idea what's "inside the
box". There is nothing at all in the way of a moving part in a dry area
where a push/pull arm could be attached and an actuator could be
mounted? If there was, one of the lighter models that have a hand
control box on a cable might could be made to work.

Jack

No, what happens is that the cable goes through a waterproof connection to
the outside which is under water. There the jacket is clamped and a boot
is clamped over the movable section. This is below the waterline, but
above the bottom of the boat. I.e., the pushpull arm is entirely below the
waterline.

Inside the engine compartment, there is so little room that you cannot even
see the two cables which control steerage and the doughnut without removing
the two large plastic pieces which help insulate the engine noise.

 

[Larry]

Please see below.

MUD isn't the problem. This Sport Jet ISN'T the kind of jet for shallow
water fishing, like the Australians produce. If the smallest rock gets
sucked up through that intake grate and lodges between the spinning
impeller and the VERY CLOSELY POSITIONED stator vanes behind it, the right-
angle gearcase in the pump simply is torn apart before the pin shears. You
might as well throw the pump away. A new complete Sport Jet is cheaper.

Mud isn't any problem at all, nor is weeds, all of which are soft. I added
the "Salad Shooter" intake grate Merc makes to replace the cheap one the
OEMs buy. This grate opens to allow weeds to be sucked into the pump and
VOILA! World's Largest Salad Shooter comes shooting out the back.

Take a former Sport Jet owner's advise, for your own good. DON'T LET THAT
INTAKE GRATE GET ANYWHERE WITHIN THREE FEET OF THE BOTTOM, even in mud!
There's always that little rock or other piece of hard crap in there that
will just make your Sport Jet ownership SUCK!

Well, a few things have changed since you owned your boat. The grate on
the bottom is stainless steel, very heavy duty, and hinged. I have owned
this boat for three years now. Last year I went too close to a mud bottom
and managed to get the pump plugged. I was at the south end of a 37 mile
lake with my truck and trailer at the north end. It was 3:30 pm and the
maximum speed I could make was 5 mph! I tried all the tricks in the owners
manual. Nothing worked. Finally, in desperation, I gave it full throttle
and after a small explosion, out came the mud and weeds.

This year, I experienced a problem similar to what you mention. I was
launching on a small lake with a rocky bottom. There was a strong wind
which kept pushing me back to shore. Before I could get far enough away,
but with the engine running, I was grounded and a few small rocks were
sucked up past the grate (it is hinged, although I don't know why). It
shut the engine down.

We pulled the boat out with the trailer and I used all manner of tools.
The grate is held on by two SS hex bolts and two fasteners whose name
escapes me only they are VERY non standard. The heads are similar to those
found on some automobiles - star shaped but otherwise like a hex key. I
was able to get all of the rocks out finally and everything has worked
since.

Question - When was the last time you had the stator off the pump to change
the rear bearing lube oil and carefully inspect the shaft seal that keeps
the water out of the poorly-designed bearing? Ever seen its guts? I
learned how from a Merc mechanic. When he took it apart, we found the
shaft seal GONE! The damned Mercury Platinum Dealer's expert mechanic
didn't seat it properly and the shaft just tore it off, running the bearing
on seawater, sand and what little oil didn't leak out. I learned how to do
it myself so it wouldn't happen again. Your dealer hasn't a clue about
Sport Jets and DOESN'T WANT TO KNOW.... He fixes OUTBOARDS.

There is no stator, only a shaft with a rotor on it.

If you take it apart, be SURE to put grease on the 4 stainless bolts that
screw into the cheap aluminum housing.....OR THEY'LL SEIZE! It took us
over an hour to work them loose without breaking them off INSIDE the
housing. My mechanic gave up. I took R-22 refrigerant and froze the bolt
to -50 C by dripping liquid freon onto the bolt head, shrinking the whole
bolt. That was the only way it will come off. DON'T LET THEM HEAT IT WITH
A TORCH as it will really screw up the Merc paint job and ruin the pump.
Freezing the bolts, then working them back and forth, got mine off. They
were hard seized! STUPID DEALERS! The grease keeps the electrolysis from
INSIDE the bolt holes just fine.

The housing is stainless steel. You still want to protect the bolts going
in, but they use something like blue loctite to prevent their vibrating
out. You couldn't separate the pump from the engine without taking the
engine out of the boat. That would be really difficult - I hope I never
have to do that. I don't think there is a rear seal, instead a shaft
comes down vertically from the engine and engages a right angle drive which
turns the pump rotor.

Just a few hints. I loved my Sport Jet, the 175hp carb'd model. Mine was
a Sea Rayder F16XR2 16' yellow with purple bimini. Chick magnet!

Mine is very pretty as well, but I'd like it more if it were a better boat!

Oh, one more hint to save your Sport Jet.......
Take the flywheel off the top of it with a proper puller. The core of the
stator coils (about $300 at a dealer) is OPEN TO THE WET! Idiots....My
first one rusted solid, shorting out the magnetic fields and stranding me
with no spark! Before yours rusts solid, and it will, GREASE the surface
of the soft iron cores wherever you can see them around where the magnets
whirl around the outside of them. Grease up the inside of the flywheel,
too, to keep the magnets from corroding all up. The new core, an
aftermarket product better than Mercury's, never rusted or corroded at all
coated with a nice layer of marine grease....(c; The guy I sold it to has
never had a problem with it in 2 years.

I've never had the plastic top off, but this uses EFI so it might not be
the same engine.

I have to say, however, that the first engine I had died after 3 weeks
leaving me stranded in the middle of a (thankfully very popular) lake. I
got a tow to shore. It turned out that one of the fuel injectors broke
inside the engine scarring up the head and gouging a cylinder wall. Merc
wanted to fix it, but I had my dealer insist and they replaced the entire
engine. Well, that's what he said, but it turned out to be what we used to
call a "short block" and one of the air injectors was bad as well. They
fixed that, but it took over a month and the season is short here. The
dealer loaned me a bigger boat while this went on, thank goodness.

Remove the chinzy oil injection made out of PLASTIC and all its plumbing.
The hole the pump fits into has a cover plate you can get from the dealer
for free after you remove the gear drive. Every new powerhead has this
coverplate on it and dealers just toss them away as they re-install the oil
injection nightmare. Mix your fuel at 40:1, oil company brands TC-W3. 1
quart to every 10 gallons of gas...or close to that, not critical. After a
thousand hours of running premix gas, the inside of the cylinders is barely
worn, the rings still real tight and in good condition and all the bearings
in the crankcase are LUBED, not dry like 100:1 oil injection the way the
greenies and government bureaucrats want them. The new owner still mixes
oil at 40:1 in the tank and at 1600 hours on a 1997 Sport Jet it purrs like
a kitten. LOTS of powerheads are blown by oil injection failures, STILL!

Thanks for the tip, but with EFI, you don't even use regular oil, it must
be synthetic. This stuff ain't cheap! This year it was $38.00/gallon.
Every mechanic has told me NOT to use regular oil - that it will damage the
engine. The oil injectors are metal, not plastic, btw. If any injector
fails, there is a warning system that lets you know. There is a computer
similar to those on automobiles on this engine.

 

[Larry]

There is no stator, only a shaft with a rotor on it.

The stator is behind the impeller. It is necessary to stop the rotational
flow of the water and redirect the thrust straight out the nozzle. They
are fixed vanes around the housing of the rear shaft bearing, the back of
which is a cone into the center of the nozzle to increase pressure and flow
speed.

 

[Larry]

The housing is stainless steel. You still want to protect the bolts
going in, but they use something like blue loctite to prevent their
vibrating out. You couldn't separate the pump from the engine without
taking the engine out of the boat. That would be really difficult - I
hope I never have to do that. I don't think there is a rear seal,
instead a shaft comes down vertically from the engine and engages a
right angle drive which turns the pump rotor.

The bearing I'm talking about is AFT of the impeller, running in a high
pressure zone in the impeller's outlet. The seal is on the forward end of
the stator vanes, right behind the impeller. This bearing, by the way, is
necessary to hold the impeller straight in the hole it sits in, keeping it
from touching the walls around it.

I still doubt old Brunswick made a pump out of solid stainless steel.
Noone could afford to buy that much machine work. It might have a
stainless sleeve inside the pump around the impeller jetskiiers call a
"wear ring". "Things" in the water get wedged between the impeller and its
wear ring which is what causes the circular gouges you see in the pump.

The rear bearing still requires maintenance...as does its pump bearing
seal. Order the service manual from the dealer or Merc and do it very
carefully.

 

[Larry]

I've never had the plastic top off, but this uses EFI so it might not
be the same engine.

I have to say, however, that the first engine I had died after 3 weeks
leaving me stranded in the middle of a (thankfully very popular) lake.
I got a tow to shore. It turned out that one of the fuel injectors
broke inside the engine scarring up the head and gouging a cylinder
wall. Merc wanted to fix it, but I had my dealer insist and they
replaced the entire engine. Well, that's what he said, but it turned
out to be what we used to call a "short block" and one of the air
injectors was bad as well. They fixed that, but it took over a month
and the season is short here. The dealer loaned me a bigger boat
while this went on, thank goodness.

God, how awful! Is this thing a Ficht or Merc's abortion of it? I was
under the impression they were using manifold fuel injection, not that
awful direct 2-stroke injection that bankrupted OMC and nearly Brunswick.
I'd NEVER own one of those!

If this had happened to me, I'd have been talking about a refund, not a
repair. Sure glad mine was a regular 2-stroke V-6 with carbs they'd been
making since 1983....

 

[Larry]

Thanks for the tip, but with EFI, you don't even use regular oil, it
must be synthetic. This stuff ain't cheap! This year it was
$38.00/gallon. Every mechanic has told me NOT to use regular oil -
that it will damage the engine. The oil injectors are metal, not
plastic, btw. If any injector fails, there is a warning system that
lets you know. There is a computer similar to those on automobiles on
this engine. --

Yecch....no thanks. My local See Doo Doo dealer is a crook so it's not an
issue here. I'd never buy one of those awful direct injection two strokes
with all their history of failures.

You might be interested in a little bit of FEDERAL law I learned all about
when returning to that same crooked bastard my 1997 Yamaha GP1200
waverunner. The Magnusson-Moss Warranty Protection Act has a clause in it
that says:

"(c) Prohibition on conditions for written or implied warranty; waiver by
Commission
No warrantor of a consumer product may condition his written or implied
warranty of such product on the consumer’s using, in connection with such
product, any article or service (other than article or service provided
without charge under the terms of the warranty) which is identified by
brand, trade, or corporate name; except that the prohibition of this
subsection may be waived by the Commission if—

(1) the warrantor satisfies the Commission that the warranted product will
function properly only if the article or service so identified is used in
connection with the warranted product, and

(2) the Commission finds that such a waiver is in the public interest."

15USC50 section 2302 (c)......current as of today.

If they tell you you MUST use their brand of some special oil, and the
Federal Trade Commission hasn't given them a waiver to weasle out of this
law, they Brunswick has to GIVE YOU THE OIL FREE for the life of the
product. It's Federal Law....

That's why Ford doesn't tell you you MUST use Motorcraft Oil to keep a Ford
warranty in force. The law was designed to prevent deception. If pressed
properly, you can probably get the ripoff $38/gallon oil FREE!

Of course, they'll all try the bully bullshit first....(c;

 

[Philip]

I agree with both. I'm in a bind in that I am willing to spend the money,
but ONLY if I can make something that works. I wish there were a way to
connect a plain ordinary Sport Pilot to my wheel as it does not require
rudder feedback and it will fit. That way I could test and see how bad it
really is. Likewise the ST3000. The guy to whom I spoke seemed concerned
that a jet boat tends to respond very quickly to changes in the tube
(corresponds with a rudder). If there were a way to vary the sensitivity
of the unit, I might gamble.... Again, thanks for your help, Philip.
--

Larry
email is rapp at lmr dot com
09/16/05 9:27:23 PM

Larry,
have a read of page 59 of
http://www.raymarine.com/raymarine/SubmittedFiles/Handbooks/Autopilots/ST3000_wheel.pdf

Maybe it will allow you to set it to either fast or slow response.

My motor-sailer has a very quick response to the wheel, and the ST3000 copes
perfectly - except when I am sailing with a quarter or following wind. But
then again, I have a problem steering with that angle of wind!!

regards, and I hope you find something that will work
Philip,