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Politicians and energy policy

Discussion in 'Electronic Design' started by rickman, May 23, 2008.

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  1. MooseFET

    MooseFET Guest

    No, I think it is where the biggest growth is but Canada has a fair
    amount of lighter stuff that is cheaper to produce. As oil passed
    about $70 a barrel, oil sands started looking good. At $100 they are
    worth investing in. At $200 they are very attractive.
     
  2. Except for the fact that the media's popular price (lately over $130/
    barrel) has little relationship to the price the oil refiners are
    actually paying for the stuff.
     
  3. krw

    krw Guest

     
  4. krw

    krw Guest

    Are they giving discounts? Why would I want one?
     
  5. krw

    krw Guest

    >,
    says...
     
  6. krw

    krw Guest

    $25 worth.
    Ok, $50.
    Seems like they're looking for the incredibly cheap.
    That's how I see it. No thanks. I have $50 of my own.
     
  7. rickman

    rickman Guest

    I have never heard anyone from a power company describe it as "turning
    down" the AC. They never let on that the temperature of your house
    will rise and you will not be as comfortable as you would like. In
    reality, the power company effectively will have control over your
    thermostat since the thermostat will be asking for AC all the time and
    the power company will be determining how long your unit will run, not
    your thermostat. Anything else won't cut the peak load.

    The peak load is not a few minutes or even an hour. The kind of peak
    loading that will prevent the construction of new power plants will
    require peak load management for 4 to 8 hours a day on the worst
    days.

    Personally, I think this is a technology that has limited practical
    utility. It would be far better to promote methods of conservation.
    That has actually worked in CA. I have heard that conservation has
    allowed them to put off the construction of several nuclear plants.
    Instead of fighting them in the courts, conservation was promoted to a
    point that the nukes were no longer needed. Of course, that was 10
    years ago and the population has grown considerably, so other
    solutions are now needed. Utilities conning people into thinking that
    letting them control your thermostat won't make there homes
    uncomfortable is not my idea of an energy solution.

    This thread started with the idea that if hybrids were much more
    common, their batteries could be used to *practically* level the load
    on the electric grid. What is wrong with that idea?
     
  8. rickman

    rickman Guest

    Actually, I am not so sure we have any say in the matter. When I was
    a kid, 1984 was still in the future and the book was still somewhat
    futuristic. I remember that the "third" country of Oceana was
    basically where the "Pacific Rim" is now. So Orwell had some degree
    of vision in his writing. The cell phones most of us carry (even I
    got one the other day) can provide info on our whereabouts at all
    times (do they ever "really" turn off???) and many of our actions can
    be tracked in real time via our use of credit cards.

    So it may well be inevitable that Big Brother will be in control of
    our thermostats. I actually had this once. I was in an apartment
    that had been chopped out of a fairly large residence. I was never
    able to get much heat by adjusting the thermostat. Turns out it was
    just a wall decoration and the only thermostat was in their part of
    the house. It was not a good feeling to have no control over my
    comfort.
     
  9. rickman

    rickman Guest

     
  10.  
  11. rickman

    rickman Guest

     
  12.  
  13. MooseFET

    MooseFET Guest

     
  14. MooseFET

    MooseFET Guest

    That may be a "if a sled had wheels it would be a wagon" argument. To
    be really deregulated, the system would have to be broken up into many
    small parts and kept broken up. This makes coordination of the
    operation hard to do. If one entity controls a significant fraction
    of the whole market, it isn't really deregulated. A monopoly (or near
    monopoly) really should be thought of as just another regulator. They
    would be just a non-governmental regulator. They would still be able
    to set prices for their part of the system.
     
  15. Eeyore

    Eeyore Guest

  16. MooseFET

    MooseFET Guest

    So you would have been happier if you hadn't found out. :)


    If energy prices rise to the point where you have to choose between
    eating and being warm, you will have the same feeling only perhaps
    worse. The choice between two bad options is a very poor sort of
    choice. For many, letting the power company shut off the air
    conditioning may be a very good option because it will allow them to
    remain reasonably comfortable and still eat.
     
  17. Eeyore

    Eeyore Guest

    It's only good if you need hot water you twit.

    In fact, if you want to store heat effectively you should use certain waxes whose phase
    change from solid to liquid occues at a practical temperature for heating. Energy stored as
    a phase change is vastly more effective.

    The energy density of even the very best batteries is *dismal*.

    Batteries are crap from the point of lifetime too. You could be having to replace these
    expensive batteries every 3-10 years. There's a serious environmental cost associated with
    making batteries too.

    Just the usual green 'feel good' propaganda lies again.

    Graham
     
  18. On Tue, 27 May 2008 06:17:17 -0700 (PDT), in sci.electronics.design

    snip
    This is one way to store it
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinorwig_power_station


    martin
     
  19. Oh, well, when gasoline hits mayb $50, $100/gal, people will drive less,
    thereby palliating the "global warming" problem, right? >:->

    OOps - "climate change" - they really don't know if we're all going to
    freeze to death or cook, but as long as we all pay obeisance (and our
    money) to prince Al, he'll make it all better.

    Cheers!
    Rich
     
  20. krw

    krw Guest

    IP? The issue was a set-back thermostat (I'm not the one who wants
    to set it remotely). I don't think I like the idea of an IP
    thermostat.
     
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