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Politicians and energy policy

Discussion in 'Electronic Design' started by rickman, May 23, 2008.

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  1. krw

    krw Guest

    Sanity certainly isn't necessary to follow AlBore. As you point
    out, Slowman is a perfect example.
     
  2.  
  3. Jim Yanik

    Jim Yanik Guest

    AlGore's staff doesn't live at his HOME.
    I doubt they work there,either,except for the domestic help.

    I wonder where Al is getting the money to do all this "communicating the GW
    message"?

    Ah,the conspiracy theory appears.
    And of course,if the "scientists" don't agree with the GW viewpoint,then
    they are "corruptable" and not scientists,but "scientists".
     
  4. krw

    krw Guest

    Some had two meters, one with a timer for the large load.
    Nothing stopping that, though you need the smart meter.
    Playing "catchup" is a misnomer. Setback thermostats do this now.

    Shedding just AC loads would keep the lighting on, and of course the
    all important TeeVee. Should help keep crime down. Blackouts in
    major cities aren't a good thing.

    You want to *keep* the humidity down. You save money by lowering
    the temperature differential. You LOSE money by letting the
    humidity rise. Unless you're JT, humidity is more important than
    the temperature.
     
  5. Guest

    http://www.gore.com/en_xx/

    They make Goretex and some very nice printed circuit substrates for
    high speed circuits, amongst other things.
    Sadly, it isn't just a theory. Some of the "scientists" involved were
    also shills for the tobacco companies, denying that smoking damaged
    yoyr health. It's actually a thoroughly entertaining story. I came
    across it in George Monbiot's book "Heat" ISBN 0-7139-9924-1. I've
    posted the details here before.
    By no means all of them. There are always contrarians around, and
    there have to be aspects of climate science where the majority view is
    superficial and misleading.

    Exxon-Mobil hasn't spent all that much money on buying counter-
    propaganda, and recently claimed that they'd stopped doing it - which
    might even be true.

    Al Gore is member of a seriously rich family. He's obviously not St.
    Francis of Assisi, which doesn't stop him from having a commendable
    enthusiasm for spreading the global warming message, nor suggest that
    the message he is spreading is wrong.

    And Jim Yanik is a gun nut, which doesn't suggest that his ideas on
    what is sane are entirely reliable.
     
  6. MooseFET

    MooseFET Guest

    On May 24, 11:12 pm, "Michael A. Terrell" <>
    wrote:
    [....]
    You forgot to mension temperature cycling. In Florida, a very air
    tight house would still pump its self full of water in a few weeks
    from that. All of the wall spaces etc will be full of humid air in
    fairly short order after the house is built.


    Some places they are talking about having the utility send signals
    around that tells the optional loads like water heaters to come on and
    off with a finer grain than just a fixed time. This allows the load
    to be made much more level.
     
  7. krw

    krw Guest

    That's what we were discussing (networked power meters that
    controlled appliances in the house).
     
  8. MooseFET

    MooseFET Guest

    Oh. I thought the "smart power meter" was just the ones that varied
    the rate depending on time of day.

    I know it was already mensioned but a low tech version was in use for
    many years. Many areas may still have some of the wiring for the
    "flat rate water heaters". It seems like that would be a good idea to
    bring back.
     
  9. krw

    krw Guest

    No wiring needed anymore. RF or carrier current signaling are all
    that's needed. I'm undecided about the merits. What's the cost
    differential (i.e. make it an option)?
     
  10. rickman

    rickman Guest

    Ok Mike, although I have spent significant time in Florida, I don't
    want to argue this point endlessly. Besides, you seem to be rather
    sleep deprived and I am sure you have better things to do. So I will
    grant you that what I am saying does not apply to people living alone
    in Florida. Ok?

    However, I stand by my statements for the rest of us. I have spent
    some significant time living without AC and I have a pretty good feel
    for how a house responds to external weather. Humidity simply does
    not enter the house easily unless the wind is blowing hard and even in
    Florida, the wind does not blow hard all the time.

    Regardless, my point about the lack of usefulness of controlling the
    AC is valid. Someone else mentioned that they control the water
    heaters. That is useful because a water heater can go without power
    for hours and still provide usefully warm water. But the utility is
    limited. Unless you are drawing hot water, the water heater cycles on
    very infrequently. So by cutting off *all* water heaters during peak
    loads saves only a *very* small amount of peak power.

    The real power sink is the AC. An AC that is off for more than a half
    an hour on a hot day will let the house get much warmer. Peak loads
    are a lot longer than a half an hour. The result is that you have
    simply made the AC draw no power for a little while and then draw a
    lot more power for the rest of the time. On the average, this
    provides *NO* reduction in peak power. Actually that is not correct;
    there is a small savings in power because the house is warmer and less
    heat enters a warmer house.

    Maybe the fridge can be cut off during peak loads, like the water
    heater. But if it is turned back on during the peak period, like the
    AC, it is going to run continuously and consume the same amount of
    energy on the average while letting your food get warmer. It may only
    be a couple of degrees, but the milk will not keep as long at 40C as
    it does at 35C and that is sort of the point of a fridge, keeping
    things cold, no?

    What other appliances can be cycled during peak loads, in a useful way
    that won't impact their operation?

    I understand the concept. I am saying that other than the water
    heater, there is no point in this sort of control to reduce the peak
    loads seen during the summer, and the water heater is not a
    significant load during peak hours. So the entire idea is much ado
    about nothing.

    Rather than trying to be superior and cute with your little digs, why
    don't you come up with something useful to say? I am happy to discuss
    this, but you just seem to want to express an attitude.
     
  11. rickman

    rickman Guest

     
  12. rickman

    rickman Guest

    I'm not sure we aren't talking past each other. I thought that was
    what I described. We had two meters, one exclusively for the hot
    water heater with a timer that shut it off during the typical peak
    load period. If you let them install this second meter, you got a
    reduced rate, likely only on the hot water meter, but a reduced rate
    none the less.

    We didn't have a smart meter 40 years ago and it worked. Why do you
    need a smart meter now? The smart meter is really a way to gain
    control over your electric consumption in a very invasive way.
    Letting the utility control the hot water heater had very little
    impact on the household because the water heater could work
    effectively even being shut off for four hours a day. But other loads
    will be significantly impacted if they are shut off for even half an
    hour. When they are shut off, it will have a noticeable impact on
    their functioning. The power company doesn't care if you are cool in
    the summer. They just want to reduce the amount of construction they
    have to do.

    What is your point? A setback thermostat reduces the use of AC (or
    heating) when no one is in the house. This has nothing to do with
    peak loads. Typical peak loads are in the late afternoon and early
    evening when people return home from work. They turn on appliances,
    crank up the AC and start cooking dinner. Notice that the setback is
    not being used. In fact, this is when the AC is having to work a lot
    harder to bring the temperature to normal. It is *not* the time when
    you want the power company cutting off your AC, even for 15 minutes.

    I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, I am saying that anyone who tells
    you it will save significant power ***without impacting your
    comfort*** is lying.

    Now we are talking about a totally different thing. If there is not
    enough capacity to meet peak demand, then yes, having your AC cut off
    for 15 to 30 minutes is better than losing all power for 15 to 30
    minutes. But the line I have heard is that the "smart" power meters
    will reduce peak loads without impacting your comfort. Yeah, right...

    What are the three big lies again? I'll respect you in the morning,
    the check is in the mail and "I'm from the Government and I'm here to
    help!"

    You won't see a significant humidity increase in a closed house over a
    10 hour period. Heck, if it was cool during the night so that the
    house was cool throughout, it takes until maybe 1 to 2 PM before the
    house starts heating up inside. The heat goes through the windows
    like they were windows while moisture has to find its way through the
    very small cracks and gaps in the house construction. The newer
    houses are all very tight and in fact, that is the real cause of Radon
    in homes. The Radon gradually seeps through the basement floor and
    walls and can't get out because the rest of the house is so air-
    tight. However, if you open a window, the humidity will rise
    noticeably in an hour or so. So don't leave your windows open during
    the day and you won't have a humidity problem.

    Rick
     
  13. rickman

    rickman Guest

    Opps, that should have been 40F and 35F... I am so used to using
    metric for everything that I sometimes forget to use US units when
    talking to others.

    Rick
     
  14. MooseFET

    MooseFET Guest

     
  15. MooseFET

    MooseFET Guest

    You can expect to see the rise slow down soon. The long term trend
    will continue to be towards higher oil prices. There is a natural cap
    somewhere around $200 per barrel. Oil sands and tar sands are
    profitable up there. There is a huge amount of oil trapped in sands.
     
  16. Oil sands should be popular at the current emotionally publicized
    price of $130 (depending on the strength of the Canadian dollar, which
    would likely get better if the oil sands extraction rate increases).
     
  17. OOps. "Popular" s/b "profitable".
     
  18. Tim Williams

    Tim Williams Guest

    We're (US) already getting a considerable fraction of our oil from Canada.
    Isn't most of this from tar sands?

    Tim
     
  19. MooseFET

    MooseFET Guest

     
  20. MooseFET

    MooseFET Guest


    It is matter of how much above the production cost the price goes.
    The cost to develop the physical plant has to be paid off. The
    quicker the pay off looks the more money that people are willing to
    invest.
     
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