pir false alarms

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Hi,

we have an alarm for 2,5 years now. It is a Rokonet system. The PIR
detector's used are Pyronix Magnum Ultra.

It worked fine for more than 2 years, but last summer we had false
alarms almost once per week. Always on the same sensor. Sensor was
replaced by the installer, but next night there was again a false
alarm.

The Pir is now replaced by a dual detector, and this detector seems to
work well.

The next week we had false alarms with both the two other PIR's. So
they are also replaces by dual's.

Now it has worked fine for 3 months. But the installer sends us a bill
for the replacement of the first detector. And i think another bill for
the two others will follow. Together this is the 25% of the price of
the system! I do not think this is normal after 2,5 years. (The
warranty of the system is 1 year, but on the pyronix site i read the
pir detectors come with 5 years of warranty)


I want to argue with the installer but first i want to learn more about
the problem. So i have some questions:

Is it possible that a fly triggers the pir?
Can this problem be due to bad adjustment of the pir or the use of the
wrong lenses?
Can the reason be in the rokonet system instead of in the PIR's?
Any other ideas???


Thanks in advance...
Joble

 

[Bob Worthy]

Hi,

we have an alarm for 2,5 years now. It is a Rokonet system. The PIR
detector's used are Pyronix Magnum Ultra.

It worked fine for more than 2 years, but last summer we had false
alarms almost once per week. Always on the same sensor. Sensor was
replaced by the installer, but next night there was again a false
alarm.

The Pir is now replaced by a dual detector, and this detector seems to
work well.

The next week we had false alarms with both the two other PIR's. So
they are also replaces by dual's.

Now it has worked fine for 3 months. But the installer sends us a bill
for the replacement of the first detector. And i think another bill for
the two others will follow. Together this is the 25% of the price of
the system!

I know it seems confusing when one looks at the original price of
installation. Is your system being monitored? If so, some in the industry
will discount to initial price of the system and make up the rest of the
cost over the length of the monitoring arrangement. Secondly, the dual tech
motions can be two to three times the cost of some of the single technology
PIR's.

I do not think this is normal after 2,5 years. (The

warranty of the system is 1 year, but on the pyronix site i read the
pir detectors come with 5 years of warranty)

That is probably the manufactures warranty which are misleading if you don't
really read them. It is not "over the counter" exchange through the
distributor in most cases. Over the counter warranty exchange is relatively
short. 30 days is normal. After that, it most likely would be a technician
taking it down, paying for shipping, sending it to the manufacturer,
possibly a bench charge if nothing is found to be wrong, shipping back, a
technician coming back to re-install either the new one, the repaired one or
the same one if the manufacturer could not simulate the problem through
testing. The manufacturer (no matter which one) will not pay for the
technicians labor, travel, overhead, etc. even if the warranty is honored.
The one year warranty, the installation company gave you, is from them and
usually will cover parts and labor. Two different type of warrantys coming
from two different entities. Manufacturers warranty's are not as great as
they sound.

I want to argue with the installer but first i want to learn more about
the problem.

Being in the trade, believe me, we appreciate that.

So i have some questions:

Is it possible that a fly triggers the pir?

Not familiar with this particular PIR but will try to give some insight for
you to make your decision. You mentioned that the PIR worked well for a
couple of years. If a fly is a concern, I would think that the PIR has seen
a fly or two over those two years without tripping. It is possible but not
probable a fly would set off a PIR.

Can this problem be due to bad adjustment of the pir or the use of the
wrong lenses?

Again, the PIR was fine for an extended amount of time with the existing
settings and lenses. Unless you made some changes to the environment (area)
the PIR is located in, which could effect the PIR's intended use or
settings, this shouldn't be the problem. Changes could be very suttle, or
simply adding a piece of furniture or wall hanging could be enough. The lens
will change how the PIR is viewing the area, but unless it is dirty, greasy,
cobwebs, paint spray, etc. or again making a change to the area, this should
not be a problem either. Did someone try to clean the lens with a harsh
cleaner of some sort?

Can the reason be in the rokonet system instead of in the PIR's?

Not if the new Dual Tech's are working fine. The only device that may cause
you problems is the battery. If it is not holding the system up during a
power fluctuation, the motions can false. Do you have power problems in your
area periodically? Have you had any since the motions were changed to see if
the new ones are effected by power outages? When was the last time you had
the battery changed? Dual techs, because of the microwave, are a little more
power hungry. Adding a battery with a little more Ah (amp hours) is
advisable especially since I don't know what other power devices you have on
the system.

Any other ideas???

It sounds like whatever was happening, it was effecting the passive infrared
portion of the detector. By adding the dual tech (addition of microwave and
passive) it is overcoming the problem. It makes me think that something
changed to effect the passive. It is not likely that three motion detectors
will go bad weeks apart. See if anything changed in the home, not that it
matters if the problem has been resolved, but for your comfort level. Look
for something, take the blinders off, that occured just prior to your first
false alarm.

 

[Frank Olson]

Hi,

we have an alarm for 2,5 years now. It is a Rokonet system. The PIR
detector's used are Pyronix Magnum Ultra.

It worked fine for more than 2 years, but last summer we had false
alarms almost once per week. Always on the same sensor. Sensor was
replaced by the installer, but next night there was again a false
alarm.

The Pir is now replaced by a dual detector, and this detector seems to
work well.

The next week we had false alarms with both the two other PIR's. So
they are also replaces by dual's.

Now it has worked fine for 3 months. But the installer sends us a bill
for the replacement of the first detector. And i think another bill for
the two others will follow. Together this is the 25% of the price of
the system! I do not think this is normal after 2,5 years. (The
warranty of the system is 1 year, but on the pyronix site i read the
pir detectors come with 5 years of warranty)

Some adjustment to the invoice to take the 5 year warranty on the
detectors may be arguable. The cost for the service visits (labour
portion) is predicated on the company's standard rates and I doubt
you're going to get them to budge. However, you can point out that when
the one unit started falsing, they should have replaced all of them at
the same time (or at least given you the option during the service visit
in which the first was replaced). You may be able to negotiate with
them on that point.

I want to argue with the installer but first i want to learn more about
the problem. So i have some questions:

Is it possible that a fly triggers the pir?

Yes. It is possible for insects to trigger a PIR, particularly if the
units aren't sealed properly and they wind up inside the unit.

Can this problem be due to bad adjustment of the pir or the use of the
wrong lenses?

Without actually viewing your installation, I doubt anyone here will be
able to answer that. There are some considerations required for
detector placement and they're pretty "standard" across the board. They
include such obvious things as:

Don't have the detector "view" a window (particularly one that the sun
shines in to);
Don't point it at hot air vents or curtains that might be subject to
movement;
Don't point it at a ceiling fan;
Adjust the lens (most often the board) so that it's not viewing "infinity";
Ensure large pets (or even small ones) don't get much closer than 10'
from the sensor (if you have to, block the lower lens elements, or the
detection zones that are viewing couches or other tall objects they
might jump on), even on so called "pet immune" detectors.

Can the reason be in the rokonet system instead of in the PIR's?
Any other ideas???

I've had instances where a wire's come loose. Make sure all the wire
terminations are tight (on both ends). This is something the tech
should have checked first.

 

[Bill]

I used to repair security systems and I'll say that motion detectors have a
long history of having false alarm problems.

The dual techs are a wonderful solution to these false alarm problems. I
have them in my house and have never had a false alarm.

The question is if the salesman advised you to purchase these before you
purchased your system?

If I went to a car lot and was offered a Chevy or a Mercedes, then decided
to buy the Chevy and had problems, I would not expect to be able to return
the Chevy and have them give me a Mercedes!

So in your case, you should certainly pay the difference in cost between the
PIR's (Chevy) and the higher priced dual techs (Mercedes). That is a no
brainer.

And if you were offered the opportunity to purchase these in the first
place, then I think you should pay for the time the repair guy spent
switching out your detectors.

The one year warranty has expired, so that is that.

If you want to argue for any reduction in cost, I would look at it like they
do for a tax situation. (Useful life.) The PIR's have a 5 year life per
warranty. Divide the cost of the PIR's by 5. You used them for two years, so
deduct that. Then ask for a credit for the remaining three years.

So if PIR's cost $50 total. This would be $10 per year. Deduct $20 for the
two years you used them. Ask for a $30 credit.

However your beef is with the manufacturer of the PIR's. They will come back
and say their warranty only covers repair. If the problem was with the
batteries, this may not be covered and they would do nothing. I don't know
if they would cover shipping or not.

So at best I would expect to get 3 repaired PIR's back from the
manufacturer, then sell them as used and get whatever that amount may be.

So far as your alarm company goes. If they did not advise you to get the
better quality detectors before you purchased your system (if they were
available at the time), then they could be nice and give you free labor for
replacement and credit you for the initial cost of the PIR's. (But they
don't have to.)

 

[Doug]

Why would you want to argue with the installer?, he gave a one year warranty
and now 18 months after the warranty expired you are having problems with
the system. I assume you called him out for service which he has performed
and apparently solved the problem. If the manufacturer has a five year
warranty on the motions then you could have returned them to the
manufacturer yourself, or paid the installer to remove them, pay him for
shipping them back for repair/replacement and than pay him again to come out
and reinstall them. The installer is under no obligation to do that without
compensation, if he chooses to cover some of the cost then in the interests
of customer goodwill then that's up to him.

As to the cause of the problem, I doubt that its the motion sensors
themselves as it would be unusual for three to fail within a few weeks of
each other.

Since the dual techs have apparently resolved the problem, then I also doubt
that it is a power related, system or wiring problem

I would look for something in the environment that has changed, either
heating/air conditioning changes or even a pet or possible even an unwanted
critter roaming around the house. Since the sensors performed OK for two and
half years then I would tend to rule out incorrect adjustments or incorrect
lenses in the PIR's.

Are the alarms random or do they tend occur at approximately the same time
of day or night?

Doug