Maker Pro
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Photodiode case

U

Uwe Bonnes

Jan 1, 1970
0
If you ask TI, they'll give you a straight answer: They badly
miscalculated and didn't replace Burr-Brown's automated test
sets far enough in advance to keep up with the fact the old
ones were failing and could no longer be fixed. The new ones
are in place, but the programming is going slowly. They're
bringing back the products several at a time and they hope to
have everything back by next spring. Oh, they do apologize.


November 06 on Electronica 2006, people at TI were quite optimistic to be
back on par with the BB parts in spring 2007. And they apologized there
too...
 
W

Winfield

Jan 1, 1970
0
Joerg said:
Oh, I'd use the BF862 where cheaper stuff won't cut it. If it weren't
single-sourced. That has just bitten me and my clients too many times.


The laser diodes on one of my recent projects were in that ballpark
as well. Ok, maybe half but we needed a few dozen. But they are
driven by a three-cent transistor, works nicely 8-D

You use 3-cent transistors to generate 2,000,000 watts
of power? Perhaps you'd better explain how that's done.
I'm all ears, to say the least.
 
J

J.A. Legris

Jan 1, 1970
0
I can be a real lifesaver, giving a serious 3x to 5x performance improvement (e.g., compared with an OPA637 opamp).

I've never thought to compare you directly with the components you
mention, but what the hell, you're right about being a lifesaver ;-)
 
W

Winfield

Jan 1, 1970
0
Joe said:
I've never thought to compare you directly with the components you
mention, but what the hell, you're right about being a lifesaver ;-)

Thanks, dad.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Uwe said:
I wonder when damagers at NXP will EOL the BF862 ?


T'is exactly why I am holding back. I don't trust the managers there
much anymore.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Winfield said:
You use 3-cent transistors to generate 2,000,000 watts
of power? Perhaps you'd better explain how that's done.
I'm all ears, to say the least.

No, of course not. It was just to say that I do use expensive parts. But
only when absolutely necessary. The highest power I have ever generated
at higher frequencies was 1.5kW (but that was continuous duty). Pulse
generation was at higher powers but still not 2MW. There, we often use
large arrays of cheap transistors. Not so much for cost reasons but
because high-powered boutique parts have too often shown a habit of
becoming unobtanium.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Winfield said:
The picture below was taken by somebody and given
to me, after they edited it to haze another person
in the picture. Anyway, there aren't many pictures
I can use when one is needed, so I grabbed it.
http://members.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewUserPage&userid=win-hill_rowland-institute

The scope is 70's era (but I've got a 7000 series myself so no
complaints). No beard.

That's an old photo, a newer one appears in the
Rowland Institute Junior Fellow program brochure.
http://www.rowland.org/rjf/images/rjf_2008.pdf

Newer scope, beard is back. But recently you said the beard is gone. Now
I am confused.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Winfield said:
OK, a hint: Shaving off a beard and shortening
one's hair indeed makes one look much younger.

Ok, shortening my hair was already done by nature, it's mostly not there
anymore :)
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Uwe said:
November 06 on Electronica 2006, people at TI were quite optimistic to be
back on par with the BB parts in spring 2006. And they apologized there
too...

So what will they do this November?
 
P

Phil Hobbs

Jan 1, 1970
0
Winfield said:
Yes. DC to establish the PD's bias and provide a
return path for the low-frequency current. The ac
signal path provides the bootstrap (which is only
important at high frequencies where the opamp has
lost tight control of the summing junction, and
where Cdiode matters) and the return path for the
high-frequency signal current.
Win,

The classical bootstrapped shield approach is very expensive in SNR
unless you're careful (which I assume you are). How do you avoid a big
noise peak due to concealing the RC rolloff?

Cheers,

Phil Hobbs
 
W

Winfield Hill

Jan 1, 1970
0
The scope is 70's era (but I've got a 7000 series myself so no
complaints). No beard.


Newer scope, beard is back. But recently you said the beard
is gone. Now I am confused.

My long beard is gone. But I have adopted the
Bruce Willis / Hollywood look, where 2 to 3 days
is optimum. Actually, for me, this translates
into fluctuating between 0 and 15 days. :)
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Winfield said:
My long beard is gone. But I have adopted the
Bruce Willis / Hollywood look, where 2 to 3 days
is optimum. Actually, for me, this translates
into fluctuating between 0 and 15 days. :)

As long as SWMBO is agreeing with that ;-)
 
W

Winfield Hill

Jan 1, 1970
0
Phil said:
Win,

The classical bootstrapped shield approach is very expensive
in SNR unless you're careful (which I assume you are). How
do you avoid a big noise peak due to concealing the RC rolloff?

Actually, the bootstrap is more quiet. The circuit is
going to suffer from the opamp's en-Cin noise without a
bootstrap, but with it, provided the bootstrap follower
is quiet, the opamp's voltage noise is impressed equally
on both sides of the diode capacitance and therefore it
doesn't generate noise current in the capacitance (which
would be seen as noise in the signal). In a sample case
the opamp's e_n is 4.5nV, which is about 5x higher than
the boostrap, so the amplifier enjoys a 5x improvement.
As a bonus, the apparent bandwidth of the main opamp is
greatly increased, or the detector's apparent capacitance
is decreased, however you prefer to look at it, allowing
dramatically more circuit bandwidth than would otherwise
be possible with the opamp.

The bootstrap bandwidth greatly exceeds the transimpedance
bandwidth, so there is no HF rolloff there. As far as the
ac coupling is concerned (mine is 200Hz), the PD's light-
current signal has to go through the feedback resistor/
capacitor, and hence get measured, no matter what the
current path might be on the other side of the photodiode.

BTW, I prefer the bootstrap approach to your common-base
transistor approach because it works well over a wider
current range, all the way to zero DC photodiode current,
where zero can be many many orders of magnitude below Imax.
 
J

Jim Thompson

Jan 1, 1970
0
[snip]
My long beard is gone. But I have adopted the
Bruce Willis / Hollywood look, where 2 to 3 days
is optimum. Actually, for me, this translates
into fluctuating between 0 and 15 days. :)

Bwahahahahaha! And I thought you had no sense of humor.

We BOTH sure look like Bruce Willis don't we ?:)

(I use the shortest setting on my beard clippers... probably about
1/8"... I'd do the same to the hair on my head but, as Joerg notes,
SWMBO objects to such a severe treatment :)

...Jim Thompson
 
P

Phil Hobbs

Jan 1, 1970
0
Winfield said:
Actually, the bootstrap is more quiet. The circuit is
going to suffer from the opamp's en-Cin noise without a
bootstrap, but with it, provided the bootstrap follower
is quiet, the opamp's voltage noise is impressed equally
on both sides of the diode capacitance and therefore it
doesn't generate noise current in the capacitance (which
would be seen as noise in the signal). In a sample case
the opamp's e_n is 4.5nV, which is about 5x higher than
the boostrap, so the amplifier enjoys a 5x improvement.
As a bonus, the apparent bandwidth of the main opamp is
greatly increased, or the detector's apparent capacitance
is decreased, however you prefer to look at it, allowing
dramatically more circuit bandwidth than would otherwise
be possible with the opamp.

The bootstrap bandwidth greatly exceeds the transimpedance
bandwidth, so there is no HF rolloff there. As far as the
ac coupling is concerned (mine is 200Hz), the PD's light-
current signal has to go through the feedback resistor/
capacitor, and hence get measured, no matter what the
current path might be on the other side of the photodiode.

BTW, I prefer the bootstrap approach to your common-base
transistor approach because it works well over a wider
current range, all the way to zero DC photodiode current,
where zero can be many many orders of magnitude below Imax.

Win,

I know about bootstrapping the PD...I've used that approach often, and
combined it with the common base idea as well. It's bootstrapping the
cable shield I meant. The original 'ghost shield' approach from WWII
sonar looks like magic but costs beaucoup SNR. The SNR of a
bootstrapped RC front end is the same as the SNR of the same amp
connected as a follower on the same RC rolloff--only the transfer
function changes.

Wide range photometers have different problems than the laser
measurements I'm typically interested in, so naturally different
tradeoffs are reasonable. In general I'm worried about getting to
within 1 dB of the shot noise in some relatively narrow range of
photocurrents, maybe a 10:1 range at most. That's not too much of a
restriction, though, since to get to 1 dB above shot noise, you have to
drop at least 200 mV across Rf, independent of circuit topology. Even
with asymmetric supplies or a big DC offset, there's at most a 20 dB
(optical) range where a given linear op amp circuit can be quiet enough
for my purposes. (Range switching doesn't count.)

My favourite way to get better SNR is coherent detection, which also
compresses the dynamic range by half (in dB). With coherent detection,
you can pick the local oscillator beam power to be anything convenient,
and still get *1 photon RMS* sensitivity on the signal beam. If I'm
really stuck in the nanoamps, I'd rather use an avalanche photodiode and
save my SNR. APDs have really improved in the last several years, so
the noise penalty is much less than it once was.

Some of the reasons I emphasize the common-base approach in my writing are:

1. It's simpler than a bootstrap--one BJT, or one BJT and two resistors
for the fancy model, and simpler is prettier. I share Joerg's
aesthetics there.

2. Its characteristics are an excellent match for laser noise cancellers
(q.v.), which use BJT diff pairs attached to photodiodes.

3. It's much easier to analyze, and thus it occasionally sneaks a bit of
device physics into the heads of people who only know SPICE and a few
textbook circuits.

<rant>
It never ceases to amaze me how many EEs and applied physicists chicken
out of analyzing the noise of a simple BJT circuit. Even new grads do
this--people who were doing partial differential equations for class a
year or two ago. The physics is dead simple, and it's about 5 lines of
algebra, but the great majority of people I talk to simply _will_not_ do
it. This is true even though BJTs follow their simple noise models
essentially perfectly, and even when their jobs depend on the results.
Pathetic.

I've had a few, fewer than 10 out of dozens and dozens I've talked to,
who have gone through the math for a common-base stage. Good luck
getting them to analyze a bootstrap.

</rant>

Cheers,

Phil Hobbs
 
P

Phil Hobbs

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jim said:
[snip]
My long beard is gone. But I have adopted the
Bruce Willis / Hollywood look, where 2 to 3 days
is optimum. Actually, for me, this translates
into fluctuating between 0 and 15 days. :)

Bwahahahahaha! And I thought you had no sense of humor.

We BOTH sure look like Bruce Willis don't we ?:)

(I use the shortest setting on my beard clippers... probably about
1/8"... I'd do the same to the hair on my head but, as Joerg notes,
SWMBO objects to such a severe treatment :)

...Jim Thompson

Wow, I had you both pegged as more like Willie Nelson. ;)

Cheers,

Phil Hobbs
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Phil said:
Win,

I know about bootstrapping the PD...I've used that approach often, and
combined it with the common base idea as well. It's bootstrapping the
cable shield I meant. The original 'ghost shield' approach from WWII
sonar looks like magic but costs beaucoup SNR. The SNR of a
bootstrapped RC front end is the same as the SNR of the same amp
connected as a follower on the same RC rolloff--only the transfer
function changes.

Wide range photometers have different problems than the laser
measurements I'm typically interested in, so naturally different
tradeoffs are reasonable. In general I'm worried about getting to
within 1 dB of the shot noise in some relatively narrow range of
photocurrents, maybe a 10:1 range at most. That's not too much of a
restriction, though, since to get to 1 dB above shot noise, you have to
drop at least 200 mV across Rf, independent of circuit topology. Even
with asymmetric supplies or a big DC offset, there's at most a 20 dB
(optical) range where a given linear op amp circuit can be quiet enough
for my purposes. (Range switching doesn't count.)

My favourite way to get better SNR is coherent detection, which also
compresses the dynamic range by half (in dB). With coherent detection,
you can pick the local oscillator beam power to be anything convenient,
and still get *1 photon RMS* sensitivity on the signal beam. If I'm
really stuck in the nanoamps, I'd rather use an avalanche photodiode and
save my SNR. APDs have really improved in the last several years, so
the noise penalty is much less than it once was.

Some of the reasons I emphasize the common-base approach in my writing are:

1. It's simpler than a bootstrap--one BJT, or one BJT and two resistors
for the fancy model, and simpler is prettier. I share Joerg's
aesthetics there.

2. Its characteristics are an excellent match for laser noise cancellers
(q.v.), which use BJT diff pairs attached to photodiodes.

3. It's much easier to analyze, and thus it occasionally sneaks a bit of
device physics into the heads of people who only know SPICE and a few
textbook circuits.

<rant>
It never ceases to amaze me how many EEs and applied physicists chicken
out of analyzing the noise of a simple BJT circuit. Even new grads do
this--people who were doing partial differential equations for class a
year or two ago. The physics is dead simple, and it's about 5 lines of
algebra, but the great majority of people I talk to simply _will_not_ do
it. This is true even though BJTs follow their simple noise models
essentially perfectly, and even when their jobs depend on the results.
Pathetic.

I've had a few, fewer than 10 out of dozens and dozens I've talked to,
who have gone through the math for a common-base stage. Good luck
getting them to analyze a bootstrap.

</rant>

Cheers,

Dang! A year ago a client could really have used one of those 10.
Anyhow, if you happen to know a good analog guy who is part of that
group of 10 and willing to work in Kahleefohniah (northern) let me know.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Phil said:
Jim said:
[snip]
My long beard is gone. But I have adopted the
Bruce Willis / Hollywood look, where 2 to 3 days
is optimum. Actually, for me, this translates
into fluctuating between 0 and 15 days. :)

Bwahahahahaha! And I thought you had no sense of humor.

We BOTH sure look like Bruce Willis don't we ?:)

(I use the shortest setting on my beard clippers... probably about
1/8"... I'd do the same to the hair on my head but, as Joerg notes,
SWMBO objects to such a severe treatment :)

...Jim Thompson

Wow, I had you both pegged as more like Willie Nelson. ;)

Nah, then they'd both be driving a big truck with mud flaps and them big
errialls ;-)

Or at least a Harley like them's guys out here who performed with him at
times:
http://dixonmayfair.com/news/news050407.html
 
P

Phil Hobbs

Jan 1, 1970
0
Joerg said:
Phil said:
Jim said:
[snip]
My long beard is gone. But I have adopted the
Bruce Willis / Hollywood look, where 2 to 3 days
is optimum. Actually, for me, this translates
into fluctuating between 0 and 15 days. :)


Bwahahahahaha! And I thought you had no sense of humor.

We BOTH sure look like Bruce Willis don't we ?:)

(I use the shortest setting on my beard clippers... probably about
1/8"... I'd do the same to the hair on my head but, as Joerg notes,
SWMBO objects to such a severe treatment :)

...Jim Thompson

Wow, I had you both pegged as more like Willie Nelson. ;)

Nah, then they'd both be driving a big truck with mud flaps and them big
errialls ;-)

Or at least a Harley like them's guys out here who performed with him at
times:
http://dixonmayfair.com/news/news050407.html

Scary, very scary. I've ridden on a motorcycle once in my life--it was
a Yamaha RD400 (two-stroke) and I was on the back. Problem was, the
other guy was about half my size, and the bike went where *I* leaned,
not where he did. We never even got out of the parking lot.

On the other hand, on bicycles I've nearly gotten myself killed more
times than I can count. The closest one was when I was 18, riding down
from Zermatt (Switzerland) on a Vienna-to-Paris tour. I was whipping
along the edge of a two-lane road that snaked down the side of a
mountain, having a great time. Then I hit an off-camber,
decreasing-radius bend and started to slide into the oncoming traffic.
There was a truck coming, followed by a line of cars, and about 4 feet
from him to the guardrail next to the umpty-hundred-foot drop on the
outside of the road. I had to cross in front of him and hit that little
space--fortunately for me there was no gravel on the shoulder just
there. Needless to say I went a bit slower for the rest of the day.
Sometimes boring is beautiful.

Cheers,

Phil "made it to 48 so far" Hobbs
 
W

Winfield Hill

Jan 1, 1970
0
Phil said:
Win,

I know about bootstrapping the PD...I've used that approach often,
and combined it with the common base idea as well. It's bootstrapping
the cable shield I meant. The original 'ghost shield' approach from
WWII sonar looks like magic but costs beaucoup SNR. The SNR of a
bootstrapped RC front end is the same as the SNR of the same amp
connected as a follower on the same RC rolloff--only the transfer
function changes.

If the voltage noise of the bootstrap follower amplifier
is the same as the voltage noise of the transimpedance
opamp, there's not only no overall noise benefit, there's
a small penalty. Yes. Although in many cases I imagine
there can be a substantial practical bandwidth improvement
without requiring an otherwise highly-complex circuit.
Perhaps that was their appeal in those old tube days.

In the happy case of the bf862, which is easy to use in a
high-performance follower bootstrap, its noise is much less
than available JFET opamps, and it equals or approaches a
BJT's performance without the dynamic-range limitations.
Wide range photometers have different problems than the laser
measurements I'm typically interested in, so naturally different
tradeoffs are reasonable. In general I'm worried about getting to
within 1 dB of the shot noise in some relatively narrow range of
photocurrents, maybe a 10:1 range at most. That's not too much of a
restriction, though, since to get to 1 dB above shot noise, you have
to drop at least 200 mV across Rf, independent of circuit topology.

Right, fine, but for us a 10:1 or even 100:1 limit would
still be a special case. For the common case of single-shot
non-repetitive events, even though the weak signals may not
be above their shot noise, it's still necessary to measure
them and to know where zero is, as you agree, right?
 
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