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PGM2 short on PC5010

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Guest

Jan 1, 1970
0
I accidentally shorted PGM2 (touched hot) while debugging a fire
detector. Now my PC5010 is dead. I examined the board but could
find no fuses or breakers. The installation manual just says the
current ratings "must not be exceeded".

Please tell me I didn't just destroy this board.
 
F

Frank Olson

Jan 1, 1970
0
I accidentally shorted PGM2 (touched hot) while debugging a fire
detector. Now my PC5010 is dead. I examined the board but could
find no fuses or breakers. The installation manual just says the
current ratings "must not be exceeded".

Please tell me I didn't just destroy this board.

What does "touched hot" mean in this case?? 120VAC? If so, then yes, you've
fried the board. Your fire detectors are hooked up between postive and PGM2
normally and a "short" here will only put the panel in alarm.
 
I

Ian Macky

Jan 1, 1970
0
What does "touched hot" mean in this case?? 120VAC? If so, then yes, you've
fried the board. Your fire detectors are hooked up between postive and PGM2
normally and a "short" here will only put the panel in alarm.

No, just the 12V Vacc supply on the next terminal. There was a tiny
spark (oops), then all the keypads were dead, and now nothing.
 
F

Frank Olson

Jan 1, 1970
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Robert L. Bass said:
I'd like to tell you that but it sounds as though that is exactly what just
happened. If you bought it from me, give me a call and I'll get it repaired
or replaced. It's usually free (sometimes even after the warranty expires).
If you got it elsewhere and it's still under warranty, contact the store.
They should do it at no charge.

If they can't/won't help call me anyway and I'll get it fixed for you.


Generous offer. In my neck of the woods it's like the sign in the china
shop. You break it, you buy it... A new system board won't cost that much
to replace. The OP's going to have to program the new board from scratch
though.
 
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Ian Macky

Jan 1, 1970
0
shop. You break it, you buy it... A new system board won't cost that much
to replace. The OP's going to have to program the new board from scratch

so, one tiny mistake and the DSC board goes up in smoke.

now THAT'S QUALITY!

!@)$&*!@*()&(!*@)*&^_*(@&!_%@#&$)%&*(!@%^(#&*$%!($!&*(%^@$&(!

definitely WILL NOT be recommending DSC
 
F

fly in the ointment

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ian Macky wrote
so, one tiny mistake and the DSC board goes up in smoke.

now THAT'S QUALITY!

!@)$&*!@*()&(!*@)*&^_*(@&!_%@#&$)%&*(!@%^(#&*$%!($!&*(%^@$&(!

definitely WILL NOT be recommending DSC

I am curious; how much experience do you have with alarms? Are you a
DIY'er?
js
 
F

fly in the ointment

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ian Macky wrote
Never installed an alarm before. Am a DIY out the wazoo, tho, so have
done similar. The freakin' output should have been protected. Every
single 4-wire smoke has those two terminals next to each other; touch
them and your board blows up. Great.

That confirms what I thought. You're inexperienced, not stupid. Most pros
know to d/c power to the system while working on it, and for the reason you
now appreciate.
To blame the manufacturer for your carelessness makes no sense. Learn from
your error; it's not such a costly one, this time.
js
 
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Ian Macky

Jan 1, 1970
0
I am curious; how much experience do you have with alarms? Are you a
DIY'er?

Never installed an alarm before. Am a DIY out the wazoo, tho, so have
done similar. The freakin' output should have been protected. Every
single 4-wire smoke has those two terminals next to each other; touch
them and your board blows up. Great.
 
T

TH

Jan 1, 1970
0
That confirms what I thought. You're inexperienced, not stupid. Most pros
know to d/c power to the system while working on it, and for the reason you
now appreciate.
To blame the manufacturer for your carelessness makes no sense. Learn from
your error; it's not such a costly one, this time.
js
Couldn't agree with you more, I am getting very tired of people never
wanting to take responsibility for their own actions.

t h
 
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Ian Macky

Jan 1, 1970
0
That confirms what I thought. You're inexperienced, not stupid. Most pros
know to d/c power to the system while working on it, and for the reason you
now appreciate.
To blame the manufacturer for your carelessness makes no sense. Learn from
your error; it's not such a costly one, this time.

while I admit freely that (1) it was entirely my mistake and (2) I am
a moron for not d/c first, knowing better, STILL YET-- the entire system
board shouldn't go up in smoke because of a single shorted output. it
*should have been protected*. what's a fuse cost?

they should put some red ink in that installation manual, after "must not
be exceeded" add "OR YOUR SYSTEM WILL BE DESTROYED AND YOU CAN THROW IT
AWAY AND BUY ANOTHER BECAUSE IT'S NOT COVERED BY WARRANTEE AND THE PROS
WILL JUST LAUGH AT YOU ANYWAY"
 
F

fly in the ointment

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ian Macky wrote
while I admit freely that (1) it was entirely my mistake and (2) I am
a moron for not d/c first, knowing better, STILL YET-- the entire system
board shouldn't go up in smoke because of a single shorted output. it
*should have been protected*. what's a fuse cost?

There are circuit breakers on the board to protect against overcurrent on
the aux and bell outputs, but not to forsee every possible blunder. The
product is designed to be used by experienced installers. To add fuses in
order to make the board DIY proof would be unnecessarily expensive if not
impossible.

BTW, I'm still not clear on exactly where you onnected the pgm2. You said
the terminal right next to it, and you also said 12v acc, whatever that
means. What exactly did you short pgm 2 to?
they should put some red ink in that installation manual, after "must not
be exceeded" add "OR YOUR SYSTEM WILL BE DESTROYED AND YOU CAN THROW IT
AWAY AND BUY ANOTHER BECAUSE IT'S NOT COVERED BY WARRANTEE AND THE PROS
WILL JUST LAUGH AT YOU ANYWAY"

Nobody is laughing at you, but in the manual it says not to power up until
you have connected all the wiring. Would you have followed that advice had
it been printed in red?
js
 
M

Mark Leuck

Jan 1, 1970
0
You stupidly shorted the board and now you blame the manufacturer, sounds
logical
 
P

pudding

Jan 1, 1970
0
Its the same with most things electronic.

You short the wrong thing on a computer motherboard and its a gonner.

Dont blame the panel.
 
A

Aegis

Jan 1, 1970
0
So, let me get this straight:

DSC SHOULD have anticipated that an untrained individual would have been
murking about in the panel and should have put in extra circuitry to prevent
that error from frying the board.

You DO realize that if they put such circuitry on every conceivable part of
the board that you could damage due to lack of [training, experience, common
sense], that board would have cost twice as much, or more, to manufacture
and that extra cost, with its associated markup (we DO live in a capitalist
society) would have been passed on to you, right? How much did you pay for
that panel? Multiply that by 3 and determine if you would have been happier
with the added protection (and lighter wallet).
 
F

fly in the ointment

Jan 1, 1970
0
2nd try: A couple of questions for you, Ian:

Ian Macky wrote
while I admit freely that (1) it was entirely my mistake and (2) I am
a moron for not d/c first, knowing better, STILL YET-- the entire system
board shouldn't go up in smoke because of a single shorted output. it
*should have been protected*. what's a fuse cost?


I'm still not clear on exactly where you onnected the pgm2. You said
the terminal right next to it, and you also said 12v acc, whatever that
means. What exactly did you short pgm 2 to?
they should put some red ink in that installation manual, after "must not
be exceeded" add "OR YOUR SYSTEM WILL BE DESTROYED AND YOU CAN THROW IT
AWAY AND BUY ANOTHER BECAUSE IT'S NOT COVERED BY WARRANTEE AND THE PROS
WILL JUST LAUGH AT YOU ANYWAY"

Again, the manual it says not to power up until
you have connected all the wiring. Would you have followed that advice had
it been printed in red?
js
 
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Ian Macky

Jan 1, 1970
0
BTW, I'm still not clear on exactly where you onnected the pgm2. You said
the terminal right next to it, and you also said 12v acc, whatever that
means. What exactly did you short pgm 2 to?

the next terminal. on a 4-wire smoke, PGM2 is next to Vaux or whatever
it's called, the 12V always-on supply for devices.
Nobody is laughing at you, but in the manual it says not to power up until
you have connected all the wiring. Would you have followed that advice had
it been printed in red?

truly i am at fault for messing with it while powered on. yes, it does
say not to. yes, it says "must not exceed" current ratings. i ignored
all those warnings and screwed up anyway. i take full responsibility.

ah, the shortcuts you take when working alone. i think i'll just switch
these two little wires on my smoke detector hot instead of disconnecting
3 batteries and 2 A/C adapters in 2 separate buildings first, shit what's
the worst thing that could happen?

yeah, if it had more dire warnings like "must not exceed... OR warrantee
voided and system destroyed" then i'm sure i would have been more careful.

that said, i have two points:

(1) humans make mistakes. we're talking about accidentally touching two
adjacent terminals on a smoke detector in another building a hundred
feet from the panel. seems like a mistake which might be anticipated;

what outrageous cost to add a fuse to the board? everyone seems to
think this is a ridiculous idea, and prohibitively expensive. huh??

you should be able to rip the wires out of a smoke detector, twist them
together, and just have the alarm system complain, not shut down. it's
*just a smoke detector*! it's not like i was hovering over the system
board dripping solder onto it.

again, what happens if the smoke gets wet due to pipe break, leaking
roof, whatever?

(2) if you can turn off Vacc by shorting PGM2, can you also do it with
PGM1? that's connected to Vacc too. since it seems to be mostly
for a few blinking LEDs-- and such LEDs are often installed on the
outer surface of the building (mine are)-- couldn't you perform the
same sort of attack with the LED? you could walk up to my garage
with a portable drill and hole saw, core out the LED from the wood
siding, then just pull the mess out and zap the wires. wouldn't even
set the alarm off that way!

yes, i appreciate that the *likely* attack is just smash & grab, not
sophisticated. still, if that's all it took...

i'm confused about people's comments re Vacc and the supply to modules.

i thought that the main 4-wire bus supplies the power to all modules. the
Vacc output is another supply, for powering devices. i shorted Vacc, or
overcurrented PGM2, whichever way you look at it, yet my keypads (which run
off the bus) were down, so it looks like *all* 12V was down.

if all 12V is down, then how can any of the modules, including the dialer,
continue to work? all modules get their power from the bus.

my system seemed dead. someone said it probably wasn't actually dead, but
i sure couldn't get any sign of life out of it! the sirens were connected
the whole time and they were silent. everything was silent & black, the
thing was seemingly wedged until a full power reset, including physically
disconnecting the batteries.

--ian
 
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Ian Macky

Jan 1, 1970
0
The board already has a self restoring PTC to protect against shorting and
overloads.

good! it has to. it'd be crazy not to protect those wires somehow.
The system shuts down power to the aux outputs when an overload or short
occurs, however the dialer, siren etc should still still work, thats something

but that doesn't explain why the keypad was dead. modules don't use aux
power, just bus power, right?
you can easily try yourself. Your siren probably didn't sound because you
didn't cause an alarm condition.

i'm really loathe to short these again for more testing!!
 
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Ian Macky

Jan 1, 1970
0
The Aux power and the keypad/bus power are the same, they may have seperate
terminals but they are protected by the same PTC.

then all the modules ARE DOWN if you short PGM2 like i did. the keypads
are down, the dialer is down, everything is down. everything runs off
12V, so if there's only one 12V supply and it cuts out, the system is dead.

so whoever keeps saying "just because your keypad is blank doesn't mean
the system is down" is wrong, the system IS DOWN for all practical purposes.

all 12V devices including sirens are disabled, all modules are disabled,
it's effectively down. it won't make a peep, it won't dial out, it's dead!

does that sound correct?
 
P

petem

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ian Macky said:
then all the modules ARE DOWN if you short PGM2 like i did. the keypads
are down, the dialer is down, everything is down. everything runs off
12V, so if there's only one 12V supply and it cuts out, the system is dead.

so whoever keeps saying "just because your keypad is blank doesn't mean
the system is down" is wrong, the system IS DOWN for all practical purposes.

all 12V devices including sirens are disabled, all modules are disabled,
it's effectively down. it won't make a peep, it won't dial out, it's dead!

does that sound correct?

the dialer is on board..not powered by the PTC cause it doesnt need to be
connected by unwary "would be technician"...sirene has its own circuit
protection

now if you dont beleive me program your panel to dial to cell phone arm it
,short the 12 volt supply from the bus or from the vcc to any ground,pgm2 or
1 or the black from the battery connector,and wait to see if it will dial to
your cell phone..
( be sure to test if it will dial in normal alarm situation...)
 
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