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PCBs and Grounds

P

Paul Burridge

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi,

I'm about to start making up another board for the field-strength
meter and there's an obvious question here that I need answered before
I start - in the interests of not making another balls-up.
Everyone says to make the ground on the board the dominant area.
That's self-explanatory with one power lead in and one ground wire.
But what if it's a *split* supply? Does this spacious area then have
to become connected to the -V of the supply does it go to the
middle/'nuetral' of the supply.
I'm just unsure as to whether it remains ground in this instance or
whether it must be connected to the 'lowest voltage' source which
would be the minus supply lead.
That's not terribly well explained but I hope you get my drift...
 
J

j.b. miller

Jan 1, 1970
0
It goes to the 'ground/neutral as you called it, NOT the -v.

As well, I've had better luck creating ground planes consisting of x-y
stripes as opposed to 'solid fill'. The actual lines were 50thou wide, about
200 thou spacing. Started this technique after designing optical emission
spectrometer interfaces.
Also helps to keep the board roughly square or slightly rectangular, why?, I
don't know, just worked for me.

jay
 
L

Leon Heller

Jan 1, 1970
0
Paul said:
Hi,

I'm about to start making up another board for the field-strength
meter and there's an obvious question here that I need answered before
I start - in the interests of not making another balls-up.
Everyone says to make the ground on the board the dominant area.
That's self-explanatory with one power lead in and one ground wire.
But what if it's a *split* supply? Does this spacious area then have
to become connected to the -V of the supply does it go to the
middle/'nuetral' of the supply.
I'm just unsure as to whether it remains ground in this instance or
whether it must be connected to the 'lowest voltage' source which
would be the minus supply lead.
That's not terribly well explained but I hope you get my drift...

It's ground, the little triangle symbols on the schematic, like those on
the bases of Q1 and Q2 or the mid-point of the supply.

Leon
 
B

Bob Stephens

Jan 1, 1970
0
It goes to the 'ground/neutral as you called it, NOT the -v.

As well, I've had better luck creating ground planes consisting of x-y
stripes as opposed to 'solid fill'. The actual lines were 50thou wide, about
200 thou spacing. Started this technique after designing optical emission
spectrometer interfaces.
Also helps to keep the board roughly square or slightly rectangular, why?, I
don't know, just worked for me.

jay

I used to do this in the old days when large copper pours were apt to cause
bubbles under the copper during etching. I still kind of like the
crosshatch look. Does anyone know how this affects the properties of a
ground plane? ie solid versus grid.

Bob
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi,

I'm about to start making up another board for the field-strength
meter and there's an obvious question here that I need answered before
I start - in the interests of not making another balls-up.
Everyone says to make the ground on the board the dominant area.
That's self-explanatory with one power lead in and one ground wire.
But what if it's a *split* supply? Does this spacious area then have
to become connected to the -V of the supply does it go to the
middle/'nuetral' of the supply.
I'm just unsure as to whether it remains ground in this instance or
whether it must be connected to the 'lowest voltage' source which
would be the minus supply lead.
That's not terribly well explained but I hope you get my drift...

For fast stuff, use double-sided copperclad and leave the bottom side
solid as the ground plane. Put parts and traces on top, and punch vias
or via jumper wires down to the ground. Topside copper pours are OK,
but if they're not very firmly strapped together they can do more harm
than good.

Live bug construction - hand-wired on a piece of plain copperclad,
chips with their nongrounded little feets bent out parallel to the
board - works very well for simple circuits.


The basic rules for high speed design are

1. Keep all interconnections zero length

and

2. Keep the parts far apart so they don't interact.

so some juggling is clearly required.

Actually, at 40 MHz, things shouldn't be that bad. Your circuit
actually has modest gain, so shouldn't be terribly picky.

John
 
R

Rene Tschaggelar

Jan 1, 1970
0
Paul said:
Hi,

I'm about to start making up another board for the field-strength
meter and there's an obvious question here that I need answered before
I start - in the interests of not making another balls-up.
Everyone says to make the ground on the board the dominant area.
That's self-explanatory with one power lead in and one ground wire.
But what if it's a *split* supply? Does this spacious area then have
to become connected to the -V of the supply does it go to the
middle/'nuetral' of the supply.
I'm just unsure as to whether it remains ground in this instance or
whether it must be connected to the 'lowest voltage' source which
would be the minus supply lead.
That's not terribly well explained but I hope you get my drift...

Paul,
The GND plane has nothing to do with the potential.
It is what all signals a referenced to.
This means in case of a dual supply (+-15V), 0V.

Rene
 
P

Paul Burridge

Jan 1, 1970
0
For fast stuff, use double-sided copperclad and leave the bottom side
solid as the ground plane. Put parts and traces on top, and punch vias
or via jumper wires down to the ground. Topside copper pours are OK,
but if they're not very firmly strapped together they can do more harm
than good.

I only do analog stuff; not interest in switching. Beyond what
frequency would you say double-sided board with one side as ground
becomes essential?
Live bug construction - hand-wired on a piece of plain copperclad,
chips with their nongrounded little feets bent out parallel to the
board - works very well for simple circuits.


The basic rules for high speed design are

1. Keep all interconnections zero length

and

2. Keep the parts far apart so they don't interact.

So you're saying that it's better to have long interconnecting
*tracks* on the board than long component leads?
One obvious point bugs me here: keeping the parts far apart is
desirable to prevent interraction, but how the hell is this possible
in IC design????
 
J

John Fields

Jan 1, 1970
0
I only do analog stuff; not interest in switching. Beyond what
frequency would you say double-sided board with one side as ground
becomes essential?

---
John, you sly dog, you've sent him after the Holy Grail!!!^)
---
So you're saying that it's better to have long interconnecting
*tracks* on the board than long component leads?
One obvious point bugs me here: keeping the parts far apart is
desirable to prevent interraction, but how the hell is this possible
in IC design????

---
It isn't!-)

Some guidelines:

1. Make the area of ground as large as possible.

2. Make your power supply traces as wide as possible.

3. If you can't think of a reason why not to, decouple.

4. Don't run inputs and outputs physically in parallel with each other.

5. Don't run inputs and outputs close to each other.

6. Don't run inputs and outputs next to each other.

7. If you have to run inputs and outputs next to each other, put a
ground trace between them.

8. Keep opamp and comparator input components as close to the package
as possible.

9. Opamp summing junctions are your enemies; make sure that resistors
which are feeding them are as close to the summing junction pins as
possible. This is where zero-length matters.

10. If you have a choice between mounting components closer to outputs
they're connected to than inputs, mount them closer to inputs.
If you don't have a choice, move things around until you do.

11. Mount inductive components away from or at right angles to each
other's winding axis.

12...
 
P

Paul Burridge

Jan 1, 1970
0
1. Make the area of ground as large as possible.

2. Make your power supply traces as wide as possible.

I'm just wondering how exactly doing this improves things. What's the
reasoning behind it?
3. If you can't think of a reason why not to, decouple.

What, between supply and ground? If I end up with say 10 of these .01u
caps in a larger design, then they'll parallel up to .1 surely? Or is
that only at LF and DC? Not that it matters between supplies and GND,
I suppose...

[Rest noted]
 
W

Walter Harley

Jan 1, 1970
0
Paul Burridge said:
I'm just wondering how exactly doing this improves things. What's the
reasoning behind it?

Because the inductance of a wide trace is less than that of a skinny trace.
(That's also partly why ground planes are good. And it's why, in radio
transmitter facilities, big flat bands of copper sheet are used for
grounding, rather than using thick copper wires.)

What, between supply and ground? If I end up with say 10 of these .01u
caps in a larger design, then they'll parallel up to .1 surely? Or is
that only at LF and DC? Not that it matters between supplies and GND,
I suppose...

Between ground and anything that should have zero AC impedance to ground,
such as the supply pin of an IC.

At RF, a trace looks like a resistor. (It does at LF, too, but not as big a
resistor.) Pick somewhere on your circuit that looks, on the schematic,
like it's connected to V+. Now redraw the schematic to add a resistor
there. Does the circuit still work as well? You'll probably find that
you've introduced distortions, oscillations, gain loss, etc. If so, then
that point needs to be decoupled to the ground plane.

I believe it's called "decoupling" because otherwise, the voltage at the
point of interest is coupled to the signal.

Two 0.01uF caps in parallel has a smaller effective series resistance than
one 0.02uF cap would. And a 0.01uF cap right next to a component is much
better at decoupling than a 0.1uF cap a couple of inches away would be,
because of the inductance of the trace between them.
 
P

Paul Burridge

Jan 1, 1970
0
Because the inductance of a wide trace is less than that of a skinny trace.
(That's also partly why ground planes are good. And it's why, in radio
transmitter facilities, big flat bands of copper sheet are used for
grounding, rather than using thick copper wires.)

Thanks, Walter. I suspected it was something like that.
Between ground and anything that should have zero AC impedance to ground,
such as the supply pin of an IC.

At RF, a trace looks like a resistor. (It does at LF, too, but not as big a
resistor.) Pick somewhere on your circuit that looks, on the schematic,
like it's connected to V+. Now redraw the schematic to add a resistor
there. Does the circuit still work as well? You'll probably find that
you've introduced distortions, oscillations, gain loss, etc. If so, then
that point needs to be decoupled to the ground plane.

I believe it's called "decoupling" because otherwise, the voltage at the
point of interest is coupled to the signal.

Two 0.01uF caps in parallel has a smaller effective series resistance than
one 0.02uF cap would. And a 0.01uF cap right next to a component is much
better at decoupling than a 0.1uF cap a couple of inches away would be,
because of the inductance of the trace between them.

Yes, that all makes perfect sense. I can't understand why the books
seem so thin on detail on this important aspect of actually making
designs *work*. I have a copy of 'The Practical RF Handbook' which has
loads of very useful data in it, but *nothing* about layout and
decoupling! Quite a serious omission for a book claiming to be a
"practical" guide!
 
J

John Fields

Jan 1, 1970
0
I'm just wondering how exactly doing this improves things. What's the
reasoning behind it?

---
It's twofold in that if you don't have, everywhere, a stable reference
for zero volts (ground) then you can't predict what effect your signal
will have on the output you want. For example, let's say that you have
a comparator with one input sitting at a voltage referenced to ground
and the other input set to switch at 1 volt. If the reference's ground
is moving around because it's sitting on a ground which varies from
-10mV to +10mV, then its output is going to be moving around as well,
and you won't be able to tell whether the comparator's output is
switching at 990mV, 1010mV, or anywhere in between. If you have a
massive ground, then when currents are drawn through it the voltage
drops across it will be small because the resistances between the points
where current are flowing will be small, and the voltage drops due to
the currents flowing through those resistances will be small.

Likewise, if you have, say, a chip which is drawing a large current from
the supply and it has a high-resistance path to the supply because of
narrow power supply traces on the PCB on which it's mounted, then the
voltage dropped across those traces will not be available to the chip
for it to do what it's supposed to do.
---
What, between supply and ground?

---
Yes, but _where_ you decouple supply from ground is more important than
just blindly throwing caps around.

The aim of decoupling is to fool everything on the PCB into thinking
that it's so important that it's connected to its own infinitely
compliant power supply, and that's done by placing a device (a
capacitor) capable of storing the energy the device (the chip) needs to
function properly, short term, across the supply terminals of each chip
which needs help. By doing that, the instantaneous high-current needs
of the chip will be supplied by its own capacitor reservoir instead of
the primary supply and the horrible power supply wiring leading up to
the chip, and when the needs of the chip subside, the capacitor will
charge up for next time through the wiring which now doesn't look so
bad...
---
 
Q

Quack

Jan 1, 1970
0
I just have to say that this was a very meaningful post for me.
I have been told by a few people to use decoupling capacitors
throughout my pcb's - i usually omit them - having never yet seen a
problem that i believed was related.
But only now does it begin to make sense ..

Thanks :)

Alex.
 
P

Paul Burridge

Jan 1, 1970
0
On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 21:19:32 -0600, John Fields

[snip]

Thanks, John. You do explain these technicalities with remarkable
clarity, I must say. The more I learn about this subject, the more I
realise my original board layout for the FSM was totally hopeless and
doomed to fail. I'm going to start another one today implementing all
the suggestions that have been made and hoping for rather better
results...
 
K

Keith R. Williams

Jan 1, 1970
0
Thanks, Walter. I suspected it was something like that.


Yes, that all makes perfect sense. I can't understand why the books
seem so thin on detail on this important aspect of actually making
designs *work*. I have a copy of 'The Practical RF Handbook' which has
loads of very useful data in it, but *nothing* about layout and
decoupling! Quite a serious omission for a book claiming to be a
"practical" guide!

The name of the book is "The Practical RF Handbook", not "RF for
Idiots".
 
J

JeffM

Jan 1, 1970
0
Take a bow, John. Explained as well as ever I have heard.

With the occasional calls we see for a FAQ (most recently by Activ8),
this is a good one to bookmark for inclusion, verbatim.

We can call it Why Ground Planes and Bypass Capacitors?.
 
S

Stefan Heinzmann

Jan 1, 1970
0
John said:
---
It's twofold in that if you don't have, everywhere, a stable reference
for zero volts (ground) then you can't predict what effect your signal
will have on the output you want. For example, let's say that you have
a comparator with one input sitting at a voltage referenced to ground
and the other input set to switch at 1 volt. If the reference's ground
is moving around because it's sitting on a ground which varies from
-10mV to +10mV, then its output is going to be moving around as well,
and you won't be able to tell whether the comparator's output is
switching at 990mV, 1010mV, or anywhere in between. If you have a
massive ground, then when currents are drawn through it the voltage
drops across it will be small because the resistances between the points
where current are flowing will be small, and the voltage drops due to
the currents flowing through those resistances will be small.

Likewise, if you have, say, a chip which is drawing a large current from
the supply and it has a high-resistance path to the supply because of
narrow power supply traces on the PCB on which it's mounted, then the
voltage dropped across those traces will not be available to the chip
for it to do what it's supposed to do.
---




---
Yes, but _where_ you decouple supply from ground is more important than
just blindly throwing caps around.

The aim of decoupling is to fool everything on the PCB into thinking
that it's so important that it's connected to its own infinitely
compliant power supply, and that's done by placing a device (a
capacitor) capable of storing the energy the device (the chip) needs to
function properly, short term, across the supply terminals of each chip
which needs help. By doing that, the instantaneous high-current needs
of the chip will be supplied by its own capacitor reservoir instead of
the primary supply and the horrible power supply wiring leading up to
the chip, and when the needs of the chip subside, the capacitor will
charge up for next time through the wiring which now doesn't look so
bad...
---




---
Yes, they'll parallel up to 0.1µF, and it'll be the main supply's job to
keep them charged up (through the PCB's traces, of course) well enough
to allow the chips which they're connected across to function at
whatever frequency they need to work at.

Now that John made a splendid cake, allow me to add some icing to it...

The effectiveness of decoupling capacitors has - oddly enough - a lot to
do with inductance. Stray inductance, that is. That is the inductance of
the wiring connecting the capacitor to the power consumer. Say the power
consumer is an IC with a ground pin and a power supply pin.

An inductor, remember, wants to keep the current through it constant. If
you attempt to change the current, the inductor will develop a voltage
to counteract this. The net result is that you can not change the
current instantaneously.

Compare that with the behaviour of a capacitor. A capacitor wants to
keep the voltage across it constant. If you attempt to change the
voltage, the capacitor will develop current to counteract this.

So if your IC (the power consumer) consumes constant current, you don't
need any decoupling, as the stray inductance has no effect. If, however,
the current varies over time, the inductance will counteract this. If
the IC wants to increase its current consumption, the inductance will
develop a voltage to counteract it, meaning it will reduce the IC's
supply voltage. If the IC wants to reduce its current consumption, the
inductance will correspondingly increase its supply voltage.

The IC's supply voltage, that is the voltage between its power supply
pin and its ground pin. Or, more precisely, the voltage between its
power supply pads and the ground pad. Pads are the connections on the
silicon chip itself. The pins are connected to the pads using wires
inside the chip package, so there is some inductance already between pad
and pin. When very fast current changes are involved, this little
inductance matters, too.

It goes without saying that those changes in a chip's supply voltage are
bound to disrupt its desired operation once they exceed a certain
margin. The actual margin depends on the situation, of course, but in
nearly all cases it will matter to some extent.

The wiring inductance between our IC and the power supply is bound to be
fairly high. This is unavoidable because the power supply will be at
some distance from the power consumers. The cure is therefore to provide
some local "interim" power source that is not affected by the wiring
inductance. This is what bypass capacitors are doing. For their
effectiveness it is essential that the inductance between them and their
respective power consumer is minimal.

Actually it is the inductance *and* the resistance that need to be
minimized, because both reduce the effectiveness of the bypass
capacitor. The resistance is easier to deal with than the inductance,
though.

So what can we do to reduce the inductance? You need to be conscious of
what causes it. A straight wire already has inductance, so you want to
reduce wire length. A wire loop has an inductance that depends on the
loop area, so you want to reduce the loop area. If you can not make the
loop shorter, you can still reduce the area by running the wires close
to each other (the wire to and the wire fro, that is). Besides reducing
the inductance, that also has the effect that less energy is radiated
into space (the loop is also an antenna).

So proper placement of a bypassing capacitor for our IC would be
straight across its power supply pins, so that the loop formed by the IC
and the capacitor circumscribes a minimal area. If you're doing a PCB,
you want to arrange the wiring on the PCB so that this situation is
approximated as well as possible.

Of course, a real world circuit has such a lot of power consumers that
it would amount to a lot of work to figure out what all the loops are
like and minimize them. Enter the ground (and power) plane. If the wires
are actually planes, as in a multilayer PCB, you do not need to figure
out the loop areas for all possible currents, as the currents
automatically choose the path of least impedance. Note my switch of
terminology from inductance to impedance. In the DC case (currents are
constant) the impedance is equivalent to the resistance. DC currents
therefore choose the path of least resistance. At higher frequencies
(alternating currents) the inductance gains more and more prominence, up
to the point where resistance does not matter anymore.

So a power plane allows the currents to choose the best path themselves,
for *any* frequency. So while a plane is not really *necessary*, it
saves you a lot of work figuring out all the loops in order to minimize
them.

For example, if you have a ground plane and above it a power wire
zigzagging about. A DC current will now choose the direct path in the
ground plane. A high frequency current however will zigzag in the ground
plane in parallel to the power wire, because that yields the smallest
loop area. By having a ground plane you allow this to happen. If you had
a single ground wire instead, you would predetermine the current path
(and thus the loop area) for all frequencies.

Cheers
Stefan
 
P

Paul Burridge

Jan 1, 1970
0
On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 20:38:41 +0100, Stefan Heinzmann

[interesting explanation snipped]
So proper placement of a bypassing capacitor for our IC would be
straight across its power supply pins, so that the loop formed by the IC
and the capacitor circumscribes a minimal area. If you're doing a PCB,
you want to arrange the wiring on the PCB so that this situation is
approximated as well as possible.

Thanks, Stefan. I never realised there was so much to this.
I've come across ICs that have power and ground connections diagonally
opposite each other so they are at the furthest pins apart! How is one
to effectively mount a capacitor when the relevant pins are placed in
the most difficult position WRT minimising lead length for the bypass
cap??
 
S

Stefan Heinzmann

Jan 1, 1970
0
Paul said:
On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 20:38:41 +0100, Stefan Heinzmann

[interesting explanation snipped]

So proper placement of a bypassing capacitor for our IC would be
straight across its power supply pins, so that the loop formed by the IC
and the capacitor circumscribes a minimal area. If you're doing a PCB,
you want to arrange the wiring on the PCB so that this situation is
approximated as well as possible.


Thanks, Stefan. I never realised there was so much to this.
I've come across ICs that have power and ground connections diagonally
opposite each other so they are at the furthest pins apart! How is one
to effectively mount a capacitor when the relevant pins are placed in
the most difficult position WRT minimising lead length for the bypass
cap??

You're probably referring to digital logic ICs (i.e. 74xx series).
You're completely right, from the bypassing viewpoint the position of
power supply pins is about the worst they could choose. As the logic
families gradually became faster this problem became apparent. The
traditional arrangement of power pins is called "corner pinning". There
have been attempts to replace that with different pinouts that have the
power supply pins in the center of the pin rows either side of the
package, but it didn't catch on, probably because it confused PCB
layouters ;-)

Of course, the general trend towards smaller packages mitigates the
problem. The trend is towards packages the size of the chip itself. For
example, the chips can have solder bumps directly where the pads are, so
that there's no extra wire needed to bond it to a pin. The pad gets
soldered to the PCB directly. This is probably the connection method
with the least inductance, hence most suitable for high speed stuff.
Breadboarding gets tricky, though ;-)

Cheers
Stefan
 
W

Walter Harley

Jan 1, 1970
0
Paul Burridge said:
Thanks, Stefan. I never realised there was so much to this.
I've come across ICs that have power and ground connections diagonally
opposite each other so they are at the furthest pins apart! How is one
to effectively mount a capacitor when the relevant pins are placed in
the most difficult position WRT minimising lead length for the bypass
cap??

If you have a ground plane, use it.

An IC is not a magic box that has power supply pins and inputs and outputs.
It's a circuit, and all those pins are internally connected in some way such
that currents flow from one to another and voltages from one to another are
sensed or produced.

At any given moment, for any given output, it is *either* drawing current
from the supply pin and sourcing it through an output, *or* sinking current
from an output into ground. Either, neither, or both of those might disrupt
its function. When it pulls current from the supply pin, if that causes the
voltage at the supply pin to drop, that could (or not) cause a problem.
When it stops pulling current from the supply pin, if that causes the
inductance of the supply lines to generate a voltage spike, that could (or
not) cause a problem. When it sends current from the output into ground, if
that makes the ground voltage rise with respect to the supply or to an input
or another output, that could (or not) cause a problem. And so on. These
are all separate problems, with possibly separate solutions.

You're not trying to decouple the Vcc pin of the IC to the ground pin of the
IC, you're trying to decouple it to *ground*. The voltage between the Vcc
pin and the ground pin of the same IC is probably no more important than the
voltage between the Vcc pin and, say, the ground reference of the next IC.
 
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