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PCB toner transfer, iron temps, etc

Discussion in 'Electronic Design' started by Active8, Oct 12, 2003.

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  1. Active8

    Active8 Guest

    hi:

    not sure why i'm crossposting. nothing but a bunch of porn ads and bs in
    AEMC

    there was discussion some weeks ago about toner transfer and iron temps.
    i put my temp probe to an old GE iron today. the probe that goes with
    the DMM, not the p probe, ok?

    linen (all the way up): 170-196 C. 196 on first test. 170 at coolest -
    thermostat off. stabilized at around 175 C. putting the probe between
    the iron and an ironing board drops this temp. you know why.

    wool (lowest part of range, i.e., colored band): 157 - 159 C

    warm: 160 C ... damn! that's clear at the other end. wool is at about 2
    o'clock and the whole range is PI radians from 9 o'clock to 3 o'clock.

    "off": 116 C !!!!!!!!!!!!!

    i better get my travel iron from storage :)

    ice in the freezer: -13 C ... that should pass health dept inspection.

    ice water: 6 C ... that'll fail OSHA in the summer.

    boiling water for tea: 96-98 C let steep 5-10 minutes or boil the
    bags/loose leaf. drink fast. climb walls. run around the block.

    so i think the temp probe is pretty accurate.

    most dry-film photopolymers (soldermask/photoresist) work best if the
    laminator temp is 110 C (+/- 5 C)

    anyone still have the instructions from their wet/blue toner transfer
    film? what's the recommended temp?

    anyone care to reiterate what the fusing temp of toner is?

    the iron used for this test works best on linen for me. i'm sure the
    temp will be higher when the iron is on the copper-clad since the
    surrounding air is probably skewing my measurements.

    brs,
    mike
     
  2. JeffM

    JeffM Guest

    white stuff http://www.dynaart.com/1_tts/c_pcb/c1_main/main_frameset.html
    (what an irritating site--and no data on the site)
    "Set the iron to its highest setting
    and apply heat directly to the top of this stack for 3 minutes.
    Do not move the iron."

    blue stuff http://www.techniks.com/how_to.htm
    "Suggested starting temperature is 275-325 degrees F.
    Iron setting is generally "polyester". Iron temperatures vary.
    Iron until board has completely and fully reached the temperature of
    the iron. Time varies with the size and thickness of the board.
    Generally this is 1.5 to 10 min. DO NOT USE THE STEAM SETTING!"
     
  3. JeffM

    JeffM Guest

    white stuff http://www.dynaart.com/1_tts/c_pcb/c1_main/main_frameset.html
    (what an irritating site--and no data on the site)
    "Set the iron to its highest setting
    and apply heat directly to the top of this stack for 3 minutes.
    Do not move the iron."

    blue stuff http://www.techniks.com/how_to.htm
    "Suggested starting temperature is 275-325 degrees F.
    Iron setting is generally "polyester". Iron temperatures vary.
    Iron until board has completely and fully reached the temperature of
    the iron. Time varies with the size and thickness of the board.
    Generally this is 1.5 to 10 min. DO NOT USE THE STEAM SETTING!"
     
  4. JeffM

    JeffM Guest

    white stuff http://www.dynaart.com/1_tts/c_pcb/c1_main/main_frameset.html
    (what an irritating site--and no data on the site)
    "Set the iron to its highest setting
    and apply heat directly to the top of this stack for 3 minutes.
    Do not move the iron."

    blue stuff http://www.techniks.com/how_to.htm
    "Suggested starting temperature is 275-325 degrees F.
    Iron setting is generally "polyester". Iron temperatures vary.
    Iron until board has completely and fully reached the temperature of
    the iron. Time varies with the size and thickness of the board.
    Generally this is 1.5 to 10 min. DO NOT USE THE STEAM SETTING!"
     
  5. Active8

    Active8 Guest

    On 12 Oct 2003 17:17:26 -0700, JeffM, said...
    uh, try that sometime - with the white stuff. i bet the holes in the
    iron foul things up. i used blue TT film and i ended up doing what i
    recently read, which is to do the above *and* use the butt of the iron
    under pressure to get the toner to adhere. pretty sure that guy used the
    white film.

    if you look at most of the posts and articles concerning toner transfer,
    you 'll see that everyone is using the linen setting *and* no one that i
    can recall is doing the above. and i seem to remember that some used the
    white stuff 'cause it's cheaper.

    i like the fast etch method presented. too bad the author can't deduce
    that persulfates aren't working as fast because the copper is being
    oxidized so there's no ion layer. i *think* that's the reason, anyway.
    then my iron must really suck! cotton/poly is between wool and linen and
    linen was what? 175 C. no wonder i (and maybe those other guys) had to
    work like a bitch. but i did it with another iron once on the
    recommended setting and worked like a bitch with that one, too. someone
    mentioned paint thinner or laquer thinner to get the toner off and said
    it was easy. i hope so because i, again, worked like a bitch with
    acetone.

    are you seening a pattern, here?

    check out thier roll laminator. $150. i saw one at walmart yesterday for
    $30. i opened the box. no temp info. thin stuff only. might be hackable.
    need to be able to set for 110 C for dry-film and there's no info on the
    temp range for that $150 unit.

    seems to me that an affordable roll laminator was one of Don Lancaster's
    things that he'd like to see, per ISMM.

    i got my blue film from DC electronics and the babe on the phone, though
    really nice, gave me a bunch of useless info from the instructions.
    again, you have to set that freakin' iron all the way up.
    yeah. stick your tongue on it if you're not sure ;-)
    i truly beleive there are many that have never used their own products.
    Klein Tools makes great leather holsters, but they've never climbed
    their sorry assses up a pole and checked out some of the little
    improvements that could be made.
    brs,
    mike
     
  6. Active8

    Active8 Guest

    lessee here. you're the guy who started the thread on how to post and
    now you triple post. **** it. i'll

    1. top post.
    2. post in <u>HTML</u>
    3. incorrectly snip the **** out of things

    On 12 Oct 2003 17:26:12 -0700, JeffM, said...
    <end snip>

    it is an irritating site.

    <end snip>

    right. let the holes f things up.

    stick some nonsense in here to snipe :) how about cancelling the other
    2 follow-ups, john? i'll even move this to the first one so it all comes
    out real purty-like.

    <end snip>

    what else can i do? i know! i've just been alerted to the fact that
    fecal matter i mean dark matter replied to the post where i reamed his
    ass for being a dickhead to you all. i think i'll see what he has to
    say. he actually posted a quote of something i said, once. he was
    bitching about a *real* mild rebuke i made to someone else. it paled in
    comparison to what he's doing now.

    brs,
    mike
     
  7. Active8

    Active8 Guest

    On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 01:24:22 GMT, Active8, said...

    uh, duh! sorry. i see the temp is in F now. either way, people have been
    using linen. maybe this new film is different.
    <snip>

    brs,
    mike
     
  8. I use a hobby sealing iron, has no holes. Works great.

    Cheers
     
  9. Active8

    Active8 Guest

    On 12 Oct 2003 17:17:26 -0700, JeffM, said...
    did you notice that there's no info on qty for the price? now that's
    irritating. even the order page just shows the weight. the techniks site
    is worse, IMO. look at the wholesale page. white on blue. ouch!

    what other data is lacking? organized specs? that would help. no links
    to pages that haven't been completed. hell they could at least put a
    note next to the link.
    this stuff does look like a major improvement over the old stuff like
    the blue stuff in the link below which doesn't appear to have improved
    at all.

    one of those magazine articles mentioned 3 mil traces and RF work. i
    wonder if the traces were *as designed* or if they smeared/expanded.

    so all those articles i've read on how to use that (obsolete?) wet/blue
    film will be useless when i run out if this new stuff is as good as it
    appears to be. that stuff was $40/10, IIRC. if so, it's a lot cheaper
    now.
    and that babe i mentioned... i may have called techniks directly now
    that i think of it. IIRC she said the wet stuff was blue and "wet"
    refered to the "better" release material which made finer lines
    possible. i may have my wires crossed. it was a while ago but i think
    she had it wrong. i remember this because when she said wet, i asked if
    it could be soaked off. yeah, it can. but it's not PnP blue. so that's
    why i've been saying wet/blue. sorry.

    sorry about having to come back to fill in some blanks, too.

    brs,
    mike
     
  10. Active8

    Active8 Guest

    is that the one they sell for R/C air work? hell, i can't remember what
    they sealed. i read a bunch of construction articles a while back.

    brs,
    mike
     
  11. yes, its used for the monocoat coverings (shrink wrap for models).
    Its a little small, but has a curve foot at the tip. good for spot finishing.

    cheers
     
  12. JeffM

    JeffM Guest

    the guy who started the thread on how to post
    Google Groups server error.

    I didn't think it went thru.
    It was the ack page that wasn't coming back.
    First time I'd seen it. Now I know.
     
  13. JeffM

    JeffM Guest

    Haven't actually used the white stuff
    --just happened to have some laying around.

    After my ancient iron melted the film the 1st time,
    I broke out my K thermocouple and set the iron for 325 degrees F.


    Acetone worked great for me. Higher than a kite the 1st time.


    Yup. Manufacturer's engineering staff or don't waste your time.

    I hammered a bead-thermocouple as flat as I could
    and stuck it under the FR4.
    When the temp leveled out, I quit.
     
  14. Active8

    Active8 Guest

    On 14 Oct 2003 01:38:45 -0700, JeffM, said...
    maybe acetone was what i used after working like a bitch. yeah, the
    smell. but that blue stuff was stuck on pretty good. a had big plane
    areas.
    that'll work.

    brs,
    mike
     
  15. Alan

    Alan Guest

    Try Jetprint photo graphic image paper. Look that up along with PCB
    toner transfer on google and you'll find a guide for doing it. It's
    $10 for a 20 pack so 50 cents a sheet.

    BUT, I have found a much easier way with this paper. Before I had
    to do as it said, soak overnight and use a toothbrush to get the extra
    paper surface off etc, lots of extra work and a PITA.

    Instead, print the circuit, then clear the circuit and put a small
    dot somewhere so the blank board will print. Then run the paper back
    through the laser printer 2 or 3 more times. The extra fusing makes
    the paper surface not stick. I now print, fuse twice more, go iron.
    Then run warm then cold water over the paper, and have water running
    under the paper as I peel. Peels nearly perfectly now, no overnight
    soaking or tedious picking at the extra paper left on the board. Have
    my boards in the etch 5 minutes after printing, with only a few
    sharpie touch up spots if any at all, and mostly because I get rushed
    to see the board and iron a little too short a time. Much better than
    before and no need for the more expensive 'right' papers. Sharp
    traces, I've done SMT and TSOP parts with this with excellent results.

    Older original thread but had to share, the results are very good
    and so much faster and easier than before with the same cheap paper.
    Have some pics up on the seattlerobotics group file section on Yahoo
    but I'll try and put some up on general webspace and post a link soon.
    Try it you'll like it, I will never order the commercial papers the
    cheap stuff from Staples etc works too well with this to ever bother.

    Alan
     
  16. Active8

    Active8 Guest

    On 18 Oct 2003 10:46:43 -0700, Alan said,
    i saved an article i found 2 wks ago:

    Easy Printed Circuit Board Fabrication
    Using Laser Printer Toner Transfer
    (C) Copyright 2000, by Thomas P. Gootee

    is that what you're referring to?

    tnx for the tip.

    brs,
    mike
     
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