Maker Pro
Maker Pro

OT Trying to copy a VHS tape in NTSC format (UK)

G

Graz

Jan 1, 1970
0
I need to copy a PAL-VHS tape in NTSC format for someone in the US. I
have a Sony VCR which can read tapes in NTSC format and I want to dub
this tape from a second VCR. My first attempt produced a tape which
can be played whether the Sony is in NTSC mode or PAL mode. Have I
succeeded or am I wasting my time?

I appreciate this is off topic here; perhaps someone could point me to
a more appropriate newsgroup if there is no simple answer?
 
W

William Sommerwerck

Jan 1, 1970
0
The European and North American TV systems use different standards -- 625/50
and 525/30, respectively. You cannot copy from one to the other without
conversion at some point.

If the tape is PAL, you need a VCR that can output the image in NTSC format
(or something closely approximating it), which you would then copy to a VCR
that records in NTSC format.

If you would tell us more about the VCRs you have (make and model, specific
features), it would be easier to help you.
 
G

Graz

Jan 1, 1970
0
The European and North American TV systems use different standards -- 625/50
and 525/30, respectively. You cannot copy from one to the other without
conversion at some point.

If the tape is PAL, you need a VCR that can output the image in NTSC format
(or something closely approximating it), which you would then copy to a VCR
that records in NTSC format.

If you would tell us more about the VCRs you have (make and model, specific
features), it would be easier to help you.

I think you've answered my question. The source VCR (JVC HR-J470EK)
doesn't have the capability of outputting in NTSC format. The object
VCR has the capability of reading NTSC tapes but probably not
recording them (Sony SLV-F900). So it looks like the idea is a
non-starter.
 
G

Graz

Jan 1, 1970
0
NTSC tapes are usually viewed in the UK by a cludge between the VHS and TV
- the VHS doesn't actually convert them to PAL.

Cludge? Is that a technical term? :)
You might be able to do it properly via your PC.

I'd be interested to know what's involved.
 
B

b

Jan 1, 1970
0
Cludge? Is that a technical term? :)


I'd be interested to know what's involved.

you will need a vcr which outputs in NTSC 3.58 - not just NTSC 4.43,
WHICH IS USED TO PROVIDE COLOUR ON A PAL tv but is useless for copying
(sorry- caps lock jammed!)
I have a sony SLV-ER7UY which has a switch for both modes, but there
were a number of Uk models offering this. try ebay.

once you get such a machine you just set your pc card and capture
software to ntsc.you can them make a vcd or dvd . I have done this.
-B
 
A

Allodoxaphobia

Jan 1, 1970
0
On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

Cludge? Is that a technical term? :)

Yes. Spelled wrong. "Kludge", IIANM
 
I

Ian Jackson

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Dave Plowman (News)" said:
A PC should have the processing power required to do a pukka standards
conversion. But I dunno if the required software/hardware exists. A Google
might help there.

Using a PC, "just for fun", I've successfully converted PAL TV DVD
recordings to NTSC, and vice versa. But of course, I wasn't starting
with raw video, which is what you would have when the source is a VCR.
With a DVD, you pick the files off the DVD, and transcode them. However,
with a cheap TV video card, you should be able to feed the VCR video
into a PC, and get it into a file format suitable for transcoding. After
that, instead of transferring to tape, burn the finished product to a
DVD (if this is an acceptable alternative).

[Just a note: I have a dirt-cheap Alba DVD player which, when playing an
'NTSC' DVD, the output composite video is switchable between original
video (with the NTSC 3.58MHz subcarrier) and the PAL 4.43MHz. With NTSC
output, the PAL TV set goes to B&W, and the subcarrier is very visible.
This 'feature' is useful for determining if a NTSC-PAL conversion has
actually worked. I'm not sure if the 'feature' works the other way
around. I must check some day.]

The success of my home-made transcodings can only be described as
'fair'. Occasionally, there is a certain amount of 'juddering' because
of the 50Hz-60Hz difference of field frequency. Also, there is a
possibility of the video and audio being a bit out-of-sync.
 
G

Graz

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Dave Plowman (News)" said:
A PC should have the processing power required to do a pukka standards
conversion. But I dunno if the required software/hardware exists. A Google
might help there.

Using a PC, "just for fun", I've successfully converted PAL TV DVD
recordings to NTSC, and vice versa. But of course, I wasn't starting
with raw video, which is what you would have when the source is a VCR.
With a DVD, you pick the files off the DVD, and transcode them. However,
with a cheap TV video card, you should be able to feed the VCR video
into a PC, and get it into a file format suitable for transcoding. After
that, instead of transferring to tape, burn the finished product to a
DVD (if this is an acceptable alternative).

[Just a note: I have a dirt-cheap Alba DVD player which, when playing an
'NTSC' DVD, the output composite video is switchable between original
video (with the NTSC 3.58MHz subcarrier) and the PAL 4.43MHz. With NTSC
output, the PAL TV set goes to B&W, and the subcarrier is very visible.
This 'feature' is useful for determining if a NTSC-PAL conversion has
actually worked. I'm not sure if the 'feature' works the other way
around. I must check some day.]

The success of my home-made transcodings can only be described as
'fair'. Occasionally, there is a certain amount of 'juddering' because
of the 50Hz-60Hz difference of field frequency. Also, there is a
possibility of the video and audio being a bit out-of-sync.

Incidentally, how common are multi-region DVD players in the USA?
Over here, it seems that many of the cheap brands are multi-region
while the known brands are Region 2 (Europe) only.
 
J

John,A

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Dave Plowman (News)" said:
You might be able to do it properly via your PC.

I'd be interested to know what's involved.

A PC should have the processing power required to do a pukka standards
conversion. But I dunno if the required software/hardware exists. A Google
might help there.

Using a PC, "just for fun", I've successfully converted PAL TV DVD
recordings to NTSC, and vice versa. But of course, I wasn't starting
with raw video, which is what you would have when the source is a VCR.
With a DVD, you pick the files off the DVD, and transcode them. However,
with a cheap TV video card, you should be able to feed the VCR video
into a PC, and get it into a file format suitable for transcoding. After
that, instead of transferring to tape, burn the finished product to a
DVD (if this is an acceptable alternative).

[Just a note: I have a dirt-cheap Alba DVD player which, when playing an
'NTSC' DVD, the output composite video is switchable between original
video (with the NTSC 3.58MHz subcarrier) and the PAL 4.43MHz. With NTSC
output, the PAL TV set goes to B&W, and the subcarrier is very visible.
This 'feature' is useful for determining if a NTSC-PAL conversion has
actually worked. I'm not sure if the 'feature' works the other way
around. I must check some day.]

The success of my home-made transcodings can only be described as
'fair'. Occasionally, there is a certain amount of 'juddering' because
of the 50Hz-60Hz difference of field frequency. Also, there is a
possibility of the video and audio being a bit out-of-sync.

Incidentally, how common are multi-region DVD players in the USA?
Over here, it seems that many of the cheap brands are multi-region
while the known brands are Region 2 (Europe) only.

If you want to do one tape I sugest to go to a store that does that
type of conversion.
 
I

Ian Jackson

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Dave Plowman (News)" said:
Could you easily find a store in the US that does NTSC to PAL conversion?
The other way round is more likely.

Same applies in the UK.
I agree that, for just one tape, a 'store conversion' would save a lot
of messing about. I was more interested in trying to defeat the
idiosyncrasies of Nero (and other multimedia processing software) than
actually trying to do anything useful.

I'm no real expert. Ten years ago, I had a couple of tapes (of a wedding
in the USA) 'professionally' converted (in the UK) to PAL. I recall that
the results were not too impressive. [Soon afterwards, my old PAL-only
VCR packed up. The replacement could play NTSC tapes anyway, so the
conversion was a bit of a waste of money!] I think that my own
more-recent efforts on the PC were actually better.

I'm not sure how common 'store conversion' facilities are these days.
However, ten years ago, when I was interested, I think that most used to
offer conversions either way. I don't think that there should be any
difficulty in getting a PAL-to-NTSC conversion done in the UK.
 
G

Geoffrey S. Mendelson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Dave said:
Likely done by pointing a camera at a monitor. Proper standards convertors
were/are extremely expensive. And only really to be found within broadcast
facilities. But then copying any VHS results in very noticeable
degradation - even without standards conversion.

I had done that in the 1980's. By 1991, I had a panasonic converting VCR
that did digital conversions. That worked until about 3 years ago when it
had a mechanical fault, and the people that repaired it tore the ribbon cable
that controlled the converter. I still have it and was able to replace enough
wires in the cable to get to work as a VCR, but for now the converter is gone.

I've since replaced it with an Aiwa that does the same thing.

BTW, the OP's problem is with Nero, PAL DVD players have no trouble playing
NTSC DVD's on PAL TV sets. Some of them automaticly adjust, some have a
setup option.

Geoff.
 
G

Geoffrey S. Mendelson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Dave said:
Thing is it's a bit of a misnomer talking about PAL or NTSC DVDs - as they
aren't actually coded to either. It's just the line and frame rates that
differ - and of course there are different ones of those on both PAL and
NTSC, IIRC, in various countries. In other words the digits on the disc
aren't PAL or NTSC encoded. And if you're feeding them to the TV in
digital, RGB or components again it doesn't matter - only if composite or
RF does PAL or NTSC really come into the equation. So I suppose it's
really just convention that they are marked PAL or NTSC - to show the
countries they're for.

Yes, and no. DVD's are component video not RGB and they can be in one of
3 frame rates. NTSC film (24/1001), PAL (25) and NTSC video (30/1001).

Even HTDV has different frame rates, PAL/SECAM zones use 25 fps, NTSC zones
use 30/1001. AFAIK, no TV sets actually play 24/1001 video.

The first DVD player I bought, circa 2000 had a choice between multisystem
and PAL TV sets as a setup option. So have all the successive ones, except
a Sansui bought around 2001, which had a multisystem/PAL switch on the back.

The Sansui one was also the only one that was zoned, at it could be converted
by entering PI at the right time on the remote. The instructions were on
a piece of paper included in the box by the importer.

Geoff.
 
W

William Sommerwerck

Jan 1, 1970
0
DVDs are component video not RGB and they can be in one of
3 frame rates. NTSC film (24/1001), PAL (25) and NTSC video (30/1001).
The first DVD player I bought, circa 2000 had a choice between multisystem
and PAL TV sets as a setup option. So have all the successive ones, except
a Sansui bought around 2001, which had a multisystem/PAL switch on the back.

The Sansui one was also the only one that was zoned, at it could be converted
by entering PI at the right time on the remote. The instructions were on
a piece of paper included in the box by the importer.

This raises a question that I've long wanted an answer to... If disks vary
according to frame rate -- how can there be a zone-free recording?
 
W

William Sommerwerck

Jan 1, 1970
0
Indeed - but as I said not actually PAL. That refers to phased
alternate line. And designed to overcome problems with
transmission that NTSC suffers from.

While introducing problems of its own, such as severe desaturation under
conditions of excessive group-delay error.
 
G

Geoffrey S. Mendelson

Jan 1, 1970
0
William said:
This raises a question that I've long wanted an answer to... If disks vary
according to frame rate -- how can there be a zone-free recording?

Because all players play all three frame rate disks. Zones refer only
to encryption. If a disk is not encrypted, then it can be played on any
DVD player. Home DVDs are not encrypted, in fact, I have never seen
DVD encryption software for home users, but it may exist.

Commerical DVDs are encrypted if the producer wants to use it. There may
be a licensing fee for involved. All licensed players are required to
check the zone bits (1-8) before decrypting a DVD to make sure the
player's zone is allowed by they DVD.

If you wish to produce a zone-free recording, you can leave it unencrypted
or encrypt it with more than one zone allowed. Israel is in zone 2, I
usually see zone 1 or 2 only disks for sale here, occasionaly I see disks
for zone 2 and 4, 2 and 6, or 2, 4 and 6.

The following web page discusses the permitted resolutions and frame rates
allowed by DVDs:

http://www.mplayerhq.hu/DOCS/HTML/en/menc-feat-vcd-dvd.html

Note that I have found you can mix some of the video and audio encoding
options in ways that are not permitted and they still work. Surprisingly
doing so produced a DVD that could be played on everything I tried including
several hard and soft players EXCEPT Windows Media Player.

Geoff.
 
W

William Sommerwerck

Jan 1, 1970
0
Indeed - but as I said not actually PAL. That refers to phased
Wasn't being jingoistic, BTW. There is always a downside being first like
with NTSC. But I'm not sure what you mean by group delay?

IIRC was taught that NTSC gives the best off camera pictures, PAL for
processing and recorded to tape and SECAM for transmission?

NTSC and PAL are pretty much Tweedle-Dum and Tweedle-Dee. There's no
significant difference between them. PAL is essentially NTSC with phase
alternation. (Which was supposed to be part of NTSC, but the designers
couldn't see any way to build an inexpensivd TV receiver to take full
advantage of it, so it was dropped.)

At the time Europe adopted PAL, the transmission systems had a lot of
non-linear group delay (the US systems didn't), which alters the hue. The
phase alternation causes the hue shifts to be "opposite" (complementary) on
alternate lines, so there is a visual averaging of the hue. This is good, up
to a point, but as the averaging pushes the color towards white, the effect
is visible desaturation.
 
W

William Sommerwerck

Jan 1, 1970
0
But I'm still not sure what you mean by 'non linear group delay'.

Phase shift in which the shift is not linearly proportional to the
frequency, along a straight line that passes through the origin.
 
W

William Sommerwerck

Jan 1, 1970
0
Dave Plowman (News) said:
Right. And just where would you get this?

From less-than-well-designed transmission systems.

The US had microwave systems which generally had low group-delay errors. In
the late '50s, Europe had coax systems which generally did not. Which was
one of the reasons PAL was selected. According to the books, anyhow.
 
Top