OT: new PC catch-22

[Robert Baer]

about 1993 sometime OS developers stopped relying on the bios for accessing
the hardware features, as a result your OS needs drivers to access the
hardware. If the harware was made after whoever is responsible for the
driver stopped supporting your chosen OS, you're out of luck.

Bye.
Jasen

In the case i queried about, the OS is WinXP, and the hardware is
(now) almost bleeding edge - only 4-6 months old.
Or did i mention that?

 

[Robert Baer]

That means something's wrong with your pee-see. If BIOS didn't see your IDE
drives no OS won't either.

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Incorrect; read what i said.
An OS can read the hard drives, and even DOS boots on the hard drive.
Booting from the CD to install WinXP is what is impossible.

 

[Robert Baer]

First of all, if your BIOS can't see drives that are there, you have a
hardware problem someplace.

As far as not being able to boot a WinXP CD, unless its an OEM CD for
installation on a new computer, I wouldn't expect it to be bootable.
Back in the Win95 days, OEM disks were rare and now I think they are
practically impossible to come by if you aren't an 'authorized'
manufacturer.




As far as I can tell, you don't. OEM disks (for installation on a new
system) are no longer available to the general public.

I have recently found out that those WinXP CDs are OEM CDs, and that
my friend had used one set (3 CDs in each of the 5 sets he got from M$)
to install on an older machine that was not bleeding edge (about a year
ago or so).

 

[Robert Baer]

They must have changed recently or maybe WinXP PRO is different. I got
the WinXP Home upgrade and even the upgrade let me boot from the CD. Of
course I had to put in the Win98 CD for a check before they let me
actually install.

There are a couple of bootable CD formats. As I recall Partition Magic
used a very old floppy simulator method. I think you may still have a
hardware/bios configuration problem. Have you tried the WinXP CD on a
system that doesn't have other problems.

I mentioned (very recently) that my friend had indeed used those
WinXP CDs to install on an older machine (1year to 1.5 years old).
So it is the bleeding edge that is bleeding him; that beta version of
the BIOS did help, but not enough.
Then again, "beta" means either incomplete or not fully tested or both...

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Fri, 29 Dec 2006 09:01:53 GMT) it happened Robert Baer
<[email protected]>:

Incorrect; read what i said.

An OS can read the hard drives, and even DOS boots on the hard drive.
Booting from the CD to install WinXP is what is impossible.

If MS DOS boots from the harddisk, it must have FAT16 or so on it?
Win XP will not run on FAT16 I think.

You would have to fdisk that disk.

It is hard to tell, incomplete data.....

 

[Robert Baer]

On a sunny day (Fri, 29 Dec 2006 09:01:53 GMT) it happened Robert Baer
<[email protected]>:

Incorrect; read what i said.



If MS DOS boots from the harddisk, it must have FAT16 or so on it?
Win XP will not run on FAT16 I think.

You would have to fdisk that disk.

It is hard to tell, incomplete data.....

And pray tell, how does one *install* Windows XP from its CD when
that CD does not boot?

 

[Jan Panteltje]

And pray tell, how does one *install* Windows XP from its CD when
that CD does not boot?

You have made so many different statements, some seem to be related to
other computers, some are 100% contradictory, so I dunno what you are
talking about right now.

Your original statement regarding this thread was something like:
'I started the [OEM] CD, and then when reboot was required it did not
reboot'.
If that was a correct observation, and you ALSO stated MS DOS booted from
the same HD, then that HD must have FAT16 or someting like that on it, and
yes XP cannot run on FAT16 IIRC (but I am no MS expert).
There must have been some warning from that OEM CD.
The disk would have to be formatted with a newer filesystem, and the MS DOS
would no longer be able to boot from it.
MS DOS will not even boot on a Win98 HD, as that uses FAT32 I think.

So -unless you get more specific and give exact setup of the system and
talk about only _one_ case at the time, nobody in this universe can help you.
Except by pure chance, as there are simply too many possibilities.

My personal view (as many now already know) is get a Linux distribution,
an normal PC hardware configuration and as Saddam is no more MS DOS is no more.
(It hang).
Get the assignment to redesign the test system soft and hardware, make some
money, go on vacation and forget all about it.

 

[jasen]

msdos 7.1 (comes with win98se) works with (some subset of) FAT32 also.

 

[Robert Baer]

Jan Panteltje wrote:



And pray tell, how does one *install* Windows XP from its CD when
that CD does not boot?

You have made so many different statements, some seem to be related to
other computers, some are 100% contradictory, so I dunno what you are
talking about right now.

Your original statement regarding this thread was something like:
'I started the [OEM] CD, and then when reboot was required it did not
reboot'.
If that was a correct observation, and you ALSO stated MS DOS booted from
the same HD, then that HD must have FAT16 or someting like that on it, and
yes XP cannot run on FAT16 IIRC (but I am no MS expert).
There must have been some warning from that OEM CD.
The disk would have to be formatted with a newer filesystem, and the MS DOS
would no longer be able to boot from it.
MS DOS will not even boot on a Win98 HD, as that uses FAT32 I think.

So -unless you get more specific and give exact setup of the system and
talk about only _one_ case at the time, nobody in this universe can help you.
Except by pure chance, as there are simply too many possibilities.

My personal view (as many now already know) is get a Linux distribution,
an normal PC hardware configuration and as Saddam is no more MS DOS is no more.
(It hang).
Get the assignment to redesign the test system soft and hardware, make some
money, go on vacation and forget all about it.

Here is an exact copy of my original posting
<QUOTE>
Start with new (6-month old), bleeding edge stuff: motherboard, Intel
D CPU, 80Gbyte hard drive, Sony DVD R/W, 500W supply, WinXP Pro.
Major problems:
1) "Intel uCode error...press F1 to continue" no boot from the WinXP CD.
2) Update BIOS to latest available (beta): the uCode error goes away; no
boot.
3) Go into the BIOS setup, first screen: *nothing* recognized; Primary
Master, Primary Slave,Seconsdary Master and Secondary Slave all have the
same message, to the effect "nothing available".

But, in booting up, there is a bit of screen fiddling, and the
installed hard drive and DVD drive are listed as present.
The DVD light has a very short blink after that, but the CD is not
accessed.

Now, the interesting part: plop in a PartitionMagic (bootable) CD,
and that works!
Understand, the PartitionMagic CD is old, way before Micro$uck
thought of XP (2002).

Seems to me that M$ has teamed with the BIOS and board makers to make
sure that one cannot *install* WinXp from scratch on these new computers.

But..if you happen to have a computer like that with WinXP installed,
the WinXP is readable and can be used for updates, etc.

So....
How in the h*ll does one start from scratch?
<\quote>
I had added at other times, that i had tried putting MSDOS on the
hard drive and that the hard drive would boot; note the BIOS still
displayed no IDE drives present.
Since i did not have ATAPICD.SYS or MSCDEX.EXE, i was not able to see
if DOS could access the Sony DVD R/W drive.
Is this simple enough for you?

 

[Jan Panteltje]

Here is an exact copy of my original posting
<QUOTE>
Start with new (6-month old), bleeding edge stuff: motherboard, Intel
D CPU, 80Gbyte hard drive, Sony DVD R/W, 500W supply, WinXP Pro.
Major problems:
1) "Intel uCode error...press F1 to continue" no boot from the WinXP CD.
2) Update BIOS to latest available (beta): the uCode error goes away; no
boot.
3) Go into the BIOS setup, first screen: *nothing* recognized; Primary
Master, Primary Slave,Seconsdary Master and Secondary Slave all have the
same message, to the effect "nothing available".

But, in booting up, there is a bit of screen fiddling, and the
installed hard drive and DVD drive are listed as present.
The DVD light has a very short blink after that, but the CD is not
accessed.

Now, the interesting part: plop in a PartitionMagic (bootable) CD,
and that works!
Understand, the PartitionMagic CD is old, way before Micro$uck
thought of XP (2002).

Seems to me that M$ has teamed with the BIOS and board makers to make
sure that one cannot *install* WinXp from scratch on these new computers.

But..if you happen to have a computer like that with WinXP installed,
the WinXP is readable and can be used for updates, etc.

So....
How in the h*ll does one start from scratch?
<\quote>
I had added at other times, that i had tried putting MSDOS on the
hard drive and that the hard drive would boot; note the BIOS still
displayed no IDE drives present.
Since i did not have ATAPICD.SYS or MSCDEX.EXE, i was not able to see
if DOS could access the Sony DVD R/W drive.
Is this simple enough for you?

Well, I dunno.
lets assume you have a new 80GB HD (not f*cked up or something), then it
seems to me BIOS shoudl see it when you enter the BIOS setup.
If not, check for a modern **** U133 IDE-cable ****, master, slave settings,
connectros plugged in, damaged cables, etc.
But we already went through that, so let's assume it is OK.
(You DO have the U133 IDE cable right? Some mobos will not work with the old
flatcables.

So now drives _should_ be available.

*Now select the bootsequence in BIOS setup:
CDROM first!!!!!!
floppy second
harddisk1 third

(Or whatever sequence, but it must try CDROM before harddisk).

This will allow you to boot from floppy too.
Save BIOS settings, power down perhaps.

Put in that MS XP CD or whatever it is, and power up again.
If it is not a bootable disk, or damaged, it will try floppy, and then harddisk.

If it does not boot from that CDROM, try an other disk that you know will boot,
and if that does, then the Xp disk is not a boot disk, or there is a marker
somewhere set in some sector to prevent you making multiple copies from XP ?
I dunno that, I would go to www.grml.org and download their Linux live disk, burn
to a CDR on an other PC, and see if it starts up.
It has an utility to install Linux to harddisk, so then you are free of MS and
all *those* worries will be over.

Other worries will manifest, some much more complicated.

So, all I can say...
Happy NewYear.

 

[Jan Panteltje]

msdos 7.1 (comes with win98se) works with (some subset of) FAT32 also.

Ah, did not know that,. last DOS I had was DR DOS 6.0 with win 3.1 running
on top of it.

 

[Robert Baer]

Well, I dunno.
lets assume you have a new 80GB HD (not f*cked up or something), then it
seems to me BIOS shoudl see it when you enter the BIOS setup.
If not, check for a modern **** U133 IDE-cable ****, master, slave settings,
connectros plugged in, damaged cables, etc.
But we already went through that, so let's assume it is OK.
(You DO have the U133 IDE cable right? Some mobos will not work with the old
flatcables.

So now drives _should_ be available.

** All IDE cables are genuine ASUS 80-wire,40-pin connector that came
with the motherboard and have been checked a number of times.
BIOS never sees any IDE devices no matter their configuration, type
or quantity (eg: hard drive at Primary Master cable position, jumpered
either as Master or as Cable Select - made no difference).
I strongly suspect that the BIOS is not totally "complete" and know
it certainly is not fully debugged as it is a "beta"; it is the most
recent availble for that particular motherboard.

*Now select the bootsequence in BIOS setup:
CDROM first!!!!!!
floppy second
harddisk1 third

** I have always done that since about 10 years ago; the only logically
useful and most versatile method.

(Or whatever sequence, but it must try CDROM before harddisk).

This will allow you to boot from floppy too.
Save BIOS settings, power down perhaps.

Put in that MS XP CD or whatever it is, and power up again.
If it is not a bootable disk, or damaged, it will try floppy, and then harddisk.

** As I said (echo again again) it does *not* boot from the XP CD.
It has been verified on an older computer (NOT bleeding edge when
bought about a year ago) that the XP CD *DOES* boot; that is how those
computers were installed!
And i did mention that the new computers *do* boot from an old (2002)
Partition Magic CD.

And *that* is the why of my "new PC catch-22" Baer growlings!

If it does not boot from that CDROM, try an other disk that you know will boot,
and if that does, then the Xp disk is not a boot disk, or there is a marker
somewhere set in some sector to prevent you making multiple copies from XP ?
I dunno that, I would go to www.grml.org and download their Linux live disk, burn
to a CDR on an other PC, and see if it starts up.
It has an utility to install Linux to harddisk, so then you are free of MS and
all *those* worries will be over.

*** Linux or any "relative" is *NOT* useable!
There are a number of Real Estate programs that work *only* on WinXP,
and if you are a Real Estate broker or agent in California, you must
work on the net and use those programs, *period*.

 

[joseph2k]

** All IDE cables are genuine ASUS 80-wire,40-pin connector that came
with the motherboard and have been checked a number of times.
BIOS never sees any IDE devices no matter their configuration, type
or quantity (eg: hard drive at Primary Master cable position, jumpered
either as Master or as Cable Select - made no difference).
I strongly suspect that the BIOS is not totally "complete" and know
it certainly is not fully debugged as it is a "beta"; it is the most
recent availble for that particular motherboard.

** I have always done that since about 10 years ago; the only logically
useful and most versatile method.

** As I said (echo again again) it does *not* boot from the XP CD.
It has been verified on an older computer (NOT bleeding edge when
bought about a year ago) that the XP CD *DOES* boot; that is how those
computers were installed!
And i did mention that the new computers *do* boot from an old (2002)
Partition Magic CD.

And *that* is the why of my "new PC catch-22" Baer growlings!

*** Linux or any "relative" is *NOT* useable!
There are a number of Real Estate programs that work *only* on WinXP,
and if you are a Real Estate broker or agent in California, you must
work on the net and use those programs, *period*.

OK. My executive summary: New PC / MoBo, alternate hardware tried,
alternate cables tried, other CD's boot on this machine, this XP CD boots
on other machines, and as you have clearly explained XP is required and
wine may as well not apply. Are all these correct?

Please boot a Linux CD/DVD and (Assuming hard disk is at primary master) use
dd as follows:

dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/hda count=63

This should clear the first logical track of the hard disk (and deletes any
existing disk manager software provided with or installed on the hard
disk). Try again.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

OK. My executive summary: New PC / MoBo, alternate hardware tried,
alternate cables tried, other CD's boot on this machine, this XP CD boots
on other machines, and as you have clearly explained XP is required and
wine may as well not apply. Are all these correct?

Please boot a Linux CD/DVD and (Assuming hard disk is at primary master) use
dd as follows:

dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/hda count=63

This should clear the first logical track of the hard disk (and deletes any
existing disk manager software provided with or installed on the hard
disk). Try again.

fdisk /mbr, from a DOS prompt will wipe the hard drive's master boot
record as well. fdisk is on the boot floppy for whatever version of
Windows you are using.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

 

[Robert Baer]

Robert Baer wrote:




OK. My executive summary: New PC / MoBo, alternate hardware tried,
alternate cables tried, other CD's boot on this machine, this XP CD boots
on other machines, and as you have clearly explained XP is required and
wine may as well not apply. Are all these correct?

Please boot a Linux CD/DVD and (Assuming hard disk is at primary master) use
dd as follows:

dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/hda count=63

This should clear the first logical track of the hard disk (and deletes any
existing disk manager software provided with or installed on the hard
disk). Try again.

I have started with new, "clean" hard drives, *no* disk managers were
within 10 miles of these computers / hard drives, and that business
seems to be not relevant, because even with *only* the DVD R/W drive
installed as Primary Master, there is a *no go* condition.

 

[Robert Baer]

fdisk /mbr, from a DOS prompt will wipe the hard drive's master boot
record as well. fdisk is on the boot floppy for whatever version of
Windows you are using.

There are no floppies for installing Win XP Professional (OEM).
The system will boot from a hard drive with DOS 6.22 or from a DOS
floppy, no problem.
No boot from the XP CD under *any* conditions (yet).

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

There are no floppies for installing Win XP Professional (OEM).
The system will boot from a hard drive with DOS 6.22 or from a DOS
floppy, no problem.
No boot from the XP CD under *any* conditions (yet).

http://www.bootdisk.com/


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

 

[Jan Panteltje]

http://www.bootdisk.com/

Impressive, seems he did not google for bootdisk or even type 'bootdisk'
in his browser ;-)
Anyways I did not know about this site either.

 

[Ancient_Hacker]

Robert Baer wrote:

3) Go into the BIOS setup, first screen: *nothing* recognized; Primary
Master, Primary Slave,Seconsdary Master and Secondary Slave all have the
same message, to the effect "nothing available".

You have a problem with the BIOS, IDE cables, or BIOS setup. Check
that you have the newer 80-wire IDE cables, with the correct end going
to the motherboard. It MATTERS, it matters a LOT, as the 80-pin cable
has different grounding configuration at the MB end.

Also check your BIOS setup so the IDE ports are set to "auto".

---

Your complaint about Win98 not booting is noted, but you see MSooft
dropped support for Win98 a while ago, so they're not going to release
any motherboard glue chip drivers for Win98. MB makers might, but it's
still a struggle to get the chip drivers installed without the chip
drivers already running!

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Impressive, seems he did not google for bootdisk or even type 'bootdisk'
in his browser ;-)
Anyways I did not know about this site either.

I have used it for years, and told a bunch of people about it.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida