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OT: Energy=Horsepower-Hours ???

N

Nico Coesel

Jan 1, 1970
0
Chuck Harris said:
Even assuming that were true (The laws of thermodynamics say it isn't),

Sunlight is free and that's where the energy is coming from. Ashes to
ashes, dust to dust... remember?
replacing our oil consumption with ethanol would take more prime arable
land than the US currently uses for food production.

I never suggested it would solve a problem. The method would create a
lot of jobs though :)
Hydrogen, ethanol, and biodiesel are not the answer. They aren't even
good stopgap measures. The answer is a non carbon based form of energy
production that exceeds the energy we now produce from carbon by many
times.

Anything less just won't do.

I agree. There should be no doubt about that. On the other hand,
energy consumption could be greatly reduced. Take a car for instance;
it is insane that the weight of a car is about 10 times the weight it
is carrying -on average-.
 
F

flipper

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hmm? I wonder. The early automobiles that used gasoline caught fire,
or caught other things on fire, rather frequently.

I think their adoption was a matter of expense, and convenience.

A horse costs you daily in terms of its care and feeding.. and yet most people
didn't need to hitch up the horses and go somewhere daily... hence the development
of the livery stable in small towns, where horses could be rented and shared.

The automobile cost you only when you used it. It didn't get tired
on long trips, and it moved substantially faster than a horse.

The supposed evils of carbon, relative to Global Warming, might just be the
catalyst for bringing nuke back into the fold.

After all, if something as noisy, dangerous and unreliable as the early
automobiles could win the hearts of the world... Nuke, which at last count
killed fewer people in Japan, than the automobile has killed in the US,
should be a shoe-in.

Your analysis relies on 'sense' but the public has been sold the
mythical notion of 'zero risk', commonly expressed as "even one life
is too many."
 
F

flipper

Jan 1, 1970
0
Sunlight is free and that's where the energy is coming from. Ashes to
ashes, dust to dust... remember?


I never suggested it would solve a problem. The method would create a
lot of jobs though :)

"Create jobs" is another of those economic phrases bandied about in
mythical proportions. By that I mean, simply 'creating jobs' is not an
economic benefit and it's a trivial thing to accomplish. Just 'employ'
everyone moving rocks back and forth. No purpose to it but it will
'create jobs'.

The point is, economic benefit comes from doing something 'productive'
and 'jobs' are the *cost* of it, not a 'benefit'.

And the same thing applies to 'clean air' or 'solutions' to 'global
warming'. Jobs are the *cost* of it and whether you actually get
'clean air', or a 'solution' to 'global warming' is the benefit. But
if you don't achive those things then all you've done is move rocks
back and forth at the cost of the 'jobs' that were 'created'.
I agree. There should be no doubt about that. On the other hand,
energy consumption could be greatly reduced. Take a car for instance;
it is insane that the weight of a car is about 10 times the weight it
is carrying -on average-.

That's a 'numerical analysis' that 'sounds good' because it's divorced
from any meaning. For example, just how did you decide an engine
'should' weigh X% of the object being transported? And how did you
decide it 'should not be needed' to have a protective shell around the
passengers, or what it 'should' weigh?

Let's see, the average weight for a horse is around 1100 Lbs and the
'normal' passenger load is 1. Translating that to a typical 5
passenger sedan you get 5500 lbs. But it's faster, a dern sight more
comfortable, and doesn't crap in the road.
 
F

flipper

Jan 1, 1970
0
I say it would run ok over here.

After some investigating I've decided you may be right on that one, at
least temporarily. I mean, the UK produces less than 20% of the wood
it consumes for primary wood products and imports the rest so burring
down a few foreign forests might fly, for a while.
 
C

Chuck Harris

Jan 1, 1970
0
flipper said:
"Create jobs" is another of those economic phrases bandied about in
mythical proportions. By that I mean, simply 'creating jobs' is not an
economic benefit and it's a trivial thing to accomplish. Just 'employ'
everyone moving rocks back and forth. No purpose to it but it will
'create jobs'.

The point is, economic benefit comes from doing something 'productive'
and 'jobs' are the *cost* of it, not a 'benefit'.

And the same thing applies to 'clean air' or 'solutions' to 'global
warming'. Jobs are the *cost* of it and whether you actually get
'clean air', or a 'solution' to 'global warming' is the benefit. But
if you don't achive those things then all you've done is move rocks
back and forth at the cost of the 'jobs' that were 'created'.

Well, as you know, the economic benefit of creating jobs depends entirely
on whether you are the consumer of the jobs, or the provider of the jobs.

From the perspective of a boss, jobs are a cost, and from the perspective
of a worker, jobs are income.

-Chuck (a boss)
 
F

flipper

Jan 1, 1970
0
Well, as you know, the economic benefit of creating jobs depends entirely
on whether you are the consumer of the jobs, or the provider of the jobs.

From the perspective of a boss, jobs are a cost, and from the perspective
of a worker, jobs are income.

I was speaking of society as a whole, mainly because it's the easy
case, but it extends to the individual as well.

What you're describing is true of any voluntary economic transaction.
The parties exchange 'value', in one form of the other. I.E. The maker
of widgets sees the sale as 'income' and to the purchaser it's a
cost.. But in all cases there is the underlying premise of an equal
'value' on both sides, otherwise it's charity or, in some cases, a
political bribe.

How does it extend to the individual? Take the case of expending
resources to 'fix global warming'. Before the 'fix' society produces X
value of goods. Now divert resources to the 'fix' that would otherwise
produce Y amount of goods. Society then has X-Y goods to spread among
the individuals. If the 'fix' does not 'fix' global warming then
you've expended resources and made society poorer for no benefit. If
it does 'fix' global warming then *that* is the 'benefit' as society
is still Y amount poorer in goods. That's the cost of it.

It's potentially worse because some portion of that Y expenditure
might otherwise go to productivity improvements that are also lost.

Now, one can claim that the 'fix' might stimulate productivity
improvements too but it's a distortion of the process, because the
'goal' is the 'fix', and almost certainly guaranteed to be less
effective as a productivity enhancer than if the market was left to
it's own incentives.

That doesn't necessarily mean you don't want to do it anyway, I.E. if
the benefit is worth the cost, but the notion that expending X
trillions of dollars will be, on the whole. 'offset' by 'job creation'
is a myth.

The confounding case is when you 'create jobs' for people who would,
otherwise, not have jobs. But that's essentially charity, regardless
of what else one calls it, and is equivalent to moving the rocks back
and forth for no purpose. Again, you might want to do it, from the
charitable aspect, but it's an added cost.

But, guess what, productivity matters to the jobless poor too because
a society can only afford the charity if it's productive enough to
generate spare resources. Put in the simplest, degenerative, case, if
you've got 6 people and 4 apples it doesn't matter how 'sympathetic'
one is, there aren't enough apples to go around. It's only when you've
got a prolific Johnny Appleseed that you have 'spares' to pass out,
unless you divert him into carbon sequestration instead of apples.
 
S

Stephen J. Rush

Jan 1, 1970
0
That's a 'numerical analysis' that 'sounds good' because it's divorced
from any meaning. For example, just how did you decide an engine
'should' weigh X% of the object being transported? And how did you
decide it 'should not be needed' to have a protective shell around the
passengers, or what it 'should' weigh?

Let's see, the average weight for a horse is around 1100 Lbs and the
'normal' passenger load is 1. Translating that to a typical 5
passenger sedan you get 5500 lbs. But it's faster, a dern sight more
comfortable, and doesn't crap in the road.

Don't forget what used to be the important one: an engine doesn't eat when
it's not working.

BTW, it would be easy to make an ultralight car, but it would never meet
Federal safety standards. It would also be a real handful in a gusty
wind; ask anyone who remembers the original Beetle.
 
S

Stephen J. Rush

Jan 1, 1970
0
Your analysis relies on 'sense' but the public has been sold the
mythical notion of 'zero risk', commonly expressed as "even one life
is too many."

Part of the problem is that to Aunt Martha, electricity is magic. She
doesn't really understand the connection between her dishwasher and that
huge, menacing building out in the boonies. All she knows is what she
read in the National Enquirer. I say round up the anti-nuke kooks and
drop 'em in the rain forest. Preferably naked.
 
F

flipper

Jan 1, 1970
0
Don't forget what used to be the important one: an engine doesn't eat when
it's not working.

True, but then you don't always have 5 passengers in the sedan either.

At any rate, it's all these 'witticisms' that get me riled up because
there's no meaning to them yet people bandy them around as if they're
some sort of 'wisdom', as well as 'obvious'. "Fragile Earth" (or
environment) is another one. 'Fragile' as compared to what? A black
hole? Or is a flea fart going to send it careening across the galaxy?

BTW, it would be easy to make an ultralight car, but it would never meet
Federal safety standards. It would also be a real handful in a gusty
wind; ask anyone who remembers the original Beetle.

I thought about mentioning the safety requirements but the horse
analogy was more fun ;)
 
F

flipper

Jan 1, 1970
0
Part of the problem is that to Aunt Martha, electricity is magic. She
doesn't really understand the connection between her dishwasher and that
huge, menacing building out in the boonies.

That was probably true in 1898 but, for current times, I think you're
exaggerating a bit as I'm sure that most people know the 'electricity'
comes from a power plant; they just don't want it anywhere near. Nor
the poles, wires, transformers, or anything else. And while that seems
like they expect it to come by 'magic' it really stems from the 'risk
free' expectation.
All she knows is what she
read in the National Enquirer. I say round up the anti-nuke kooks and
drop 'em in the rain forest. Preferably naked.

Well, there's no place to put them because 'civilization' is a
violation of nature and putting them in a rain forest is 'human
pollution'.
 
H

Homer J Simpson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Part of the problem is that to Aunt Martha, electricity is magic. She
doesn't really understand the connection between her dishwasher and that
huge, menacing building out in the boonies. All she knows is what she
read in the National Enquirer. I say round up the anti-nuke kooks and
drop 'em in the rain forest. Preferably naked.

Right after we round up your lot and make them suck a chimney.
 
J

joseph2k

Jan 1, 1970
0
Don said:
Newest multi cycle coal plants approach 60 percent efficiency.

Further, they can power a heat pump with a SEER of 16 or so that
completely blows away any conventional coal furnace.
How very interesting, in Physics class i had to demonstrate the maximum
possible efficiency for a heat engine. Like all others before me the best
cycle is Carnot with a maximum efficiency of 47 percent. Rankine with
superheat and super-scavenging tops out just below 40 percent. It also
represents the best possible "steam plant" operation. By the time you get
done with transmission losses 35 percent efficiency from fuel to socket is
very good indeed.
If heat is the desired output, nothing will ever beat local fuel to heat
conversion. Efficiency in excess of 90 percent is not very difficult.
Heat pumps can move maybe twice the real energy as provided in input, but
the Carnot limit proves that recovering all the transported energy still
looses total energy.
 
M

MooseFET

Jan 1, 1970
0
How very interesting, in Physics class i had to demonstrate the maximum
possible efficiency for a heat engine. Like all others before me the best
cycle is Carnot with a maximum efficiency of 47 percent. Rankine with
superheat and super-scavenging tops out just below 40 percent. It also
represents the best possible "steam plant" operation. By the time you get
done with transmission losses 35 percent efficiency from fuel to socket is
very good indeed.
If heat is the desired output, nothing will ever beat local fuel to heat
conversion. Efficiency in excess of 90 percent is not very difficult.
Heat pumps can move maybe twice the real energy as provided in input, but
the Carnot limit proves that recovering all the transported energy still
looses total energy.

Better yet:

Use an engine to run the heat pump. Since almost all of the losses of
the engine are heat, if the goal is a heated house, most of the losses
get put to a good use. This should give a far better number than
either a furnace or a heat pump alone.
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
MooseFET said:
Better yet:

Use an engine to run the heat pump. Since almost all of the losses of
the engine are heat, if the goal is a heated house, most of the losses
get put to a good use. This should give a far better number than
either a furnace or a heat pump alone.

Local CHP makes a LOT of sense for efficiency reasons. It's another reason why
hybrid cars are the future too.

Graham
 
G

Glen Walpert

Jan 1, 1970
0
Sounds like you took Physics so long ago that combined cycle plants
were not considered.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_cycle

Efficiency of CCGT plants

The thermal efficiency of a combined cycle power plant is normally in
terms of the net power output of the plant as a percentage of the
lower heating value (LHV) or net calorific value (NCV) of the fuel. In
the case of generating only electricity, power plant efficiencies of
up to 59% can be achieved. In the case of combined heat and power
generation, the efficiency can increase to about 85%.
----
Actual plant reference in First page of Google search:

"ScienceDirect - Energy : Performance effects of combined cycle ...
The plant consists of one Combined Cycle Unit with a designed total
net power output of 457.6 MW and net heat rate of 6695 kJ/kW h
(efficiency=53.8%). ...
linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0360544204004633"

These ara all 2 cycle plants with the exhaust of a gas turbine
powering a steam cycle. The coal version is experimental at this
time, AFIK.
Local CHP makes a LOT of sense for efficiency reasons. It's another reason why
hybrid cars are the future too.

Indeed, CHP or COGEN as it is usually called here (combined heat and
power generation) was all the rage during the last energy shortage.
Then energy became cheap and plentiful again and many of the cogen
mfgrs got out of the business. No ROI in the first year so no buyers.
When energy gets expensive enough cogen might return to some
popularity - but it dosen't work too well with centrailized large
power plants since there is no practical way to get the heat to users.

Actually all of the losses of an engine are as heat, but it is not all
recoverable heat. An old rule of thumb for diesels that probably goes
back to Otto himself is: 1/3 of the energy delivered to the shaft, 1/3
to the cooling water, and 1/3 out the stack with the exhaust. This is
still pretty close for small diesels, but large turbocharged diesels
do significantly better - 50% efficiency for the current record
holder:

http://people.bath.ac.uk/ccsshb/12cyl/

This engine has record setting efficiency due to its record setting
displacement of 1820 liters per cylinder, which gives it a terrific
volume to surface ratio, cutting way down on heat loss through the
cylinder walls into the cooling water and also reducing friction due
to less rubbing surface area per liter of displacement. To get
anywhere near this efficiency in a small diesel will be very
challenging, simply not possible with a conventional oil lubricated
metal engine due to the low temperatures they can tolerate. There was
a bunch of activity in the development of uncooled ceramic diesels 20
years ago or so, and some notable efficiency improvements made with
ceramic piston caps and cylinder head liners in metal engines. Perhaps
some variant will eventually emerge as a small high efficiency engine
for hybrid vehicles.
 
J

jasen

Jan 1, 1970
0
About 2% of petroleum goes into making plastic resins.. that stuff
would be VERY hard to substitute for.

vegitable oils won't work?

Bye.
Jasen
 
J

jasen

Jan 1, 1970
0
That's an odd concept, that you have to 'maintain' a
forest to make it natural. Nature doesn't need humans
to maintain anything. We are very good at messing things
up though.

yeah, forrest fires are natural...

Bye.
Jasen
 
P

Paul Burke

Jan 1, 1970
0
jasen said:
yeah, forrest fires are natural...

Essential even. Gump fires and prairie (savannah) fires too. Clears up
the dead stuff, makes way for new growth.
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
Essential even. Gump fires and prairie (savannah) fires too. Clears up
the dead stuff, makes way for new growth.

Yes, and the prevention of essential burning ends up resulting in
firestorms that are 100X as destructive as the natural fires would
have been.

Thanks,
Rich
 
J

Jonathan Kirwan

Jan 1, 1970
0
You can find out this information easily enough on the web, or in a
decent technical library

My pocket scientific data books lists enthalpies of combustion for
ethanol - 1371 kilojoule per mole - and for n-octane - 5512 kilojoule
per mole. You need to know the molecular weight of ethanol - 46.07 -
and of n-octane -114.23 - before you can do anything useful with these
numbers, as a mole of ethanol is 46.07 grams of ethanol, and a mole of
n-octane is 114.23 grams.

If you really do want to convert joules in to horse-power hours, you
will also need to know that one horsepower is 745.7 watts (or joules
per second) and that an hour contains 3600 seconds.

Just now, I decided to play with the numbers. It seems that I have
the following for n-octane:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane

5530 kJ/mole
114.2285 g/mole
.703 g/ml

This computes out to 34MJ/liter for n-octane or about 12.674
horsepower-hours/liter. Seems reasonable. I believe "gasoline" is
tagged, here in the US anyway, at about 44MJ/liter.

Jon
 
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